Bethlehem Steel Collapse Leaves Retired Workers Scrambling for Benefits (95,000 people)

Miami Herald ^ | Sun, Feb. 09, 2003 | DAVID B. CARUSO

[smalltown]

Just to clear up who will pay the future pension benefits, the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. if funded through employer paid insurance premiums.

From their website:
"PBGC is a federal corporation created under the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974. It currently guarantees payment of basic pension benefits earned by 44 million American workers and retirees participating in about 32,500 private-sector defined benefit pension plans. The agency receives no funds from general tax revenues. Operations are financed largely by insurance premiums paid by companies that sponsor pension plans and by PBGC's investment returns."

[MonroeDNA]

"Is it Socialism when the US government spend billions and builds modern steel plant in China, South Korea, Russia, Japan and Germany as it has?"

No.

Please consult a dictionary regarding the word, "socialism."

I can't believe, with all your brains, that you are that clueless about socialism.

[A Patriot Son]

Be sure to read my posts #79 and 97.

[MonroeDNA]

"Yet you want the citizens and US taxpayers to get screwed..."

No, I want unions to get screwed, along with all other collectivists.

Longshoremen in LA are making $120,000 an hour, for pulling levers, unloading docks.

The rest of us pay the price.

[McGavin999]

What everyone is saying Patriot Son is that it was a bet on the future that lost. Regardless of whether it is right or wrong doesn't matter. It's gone, done.

I've worked for lots of companies that promised something when "things turned around" or "got better" and it was part of my wages to be paid in the future. None of it ever panned out, so I took measures to take care of myself.

They sould count themselves lucky to be receiving 90% of their pensions, that too could be 0%.

I'm sorry it happened, but I don't want my money going to pay for something I had nothing to do with. I need it myself because I have to take care of myself.

[Daus]

This is another case of the current union members screwing the retired members.

The benefit programs just got richer and richer while the industry got sicker and sicker. Heck, I've read that the current Union leadership ever supported this purchase (to once again save thier own short-term hide, at the expense of the retired).

I am somewhat familiar with the particulars of this case, and at the end of the day the health care/pension liabilities of Beth Steel were twice the current market cap of the company as a whole. That's called a death spiral. They could have not sold and just shut the whole place down, but then what good would have that done?

[A Patriot Son]

I repeat: (2)Do you aprove of this International Socialism at American citizens' expense?(Giving billions of dollars to Russia, China, S Korea, Japan, and Germany to build steel palnts.)

And..Do you know what International Socialism is?

[MonroeDNA]

Let me re-phrase that:

I WANT THE UNIONS TO GET SCREWED!!!!! ALONG WITH ALL SOCIALISTIC COLLECTIVISTS!!!

Sorry if that wasn't clear the first time.

[A Patriot Son]

Please read my replies # 79 mand 97 for the root of the problems.

[A Patriot Son]

Do you approve of the United States government financing at US citizen expense of billions and supplying the technology to build the modern steel plants Russia, China, Germany, Japan and South Korea?

[DoughtyOne]

I've seen it. I worked in the same position for 26.5 years. For the last ten we were basicly told every three months that we might lose our jobs any minute. I was damned good at what I did. Industry people from all over southern California told me I was in the top two or three at what I did. Finally I took a promotion that I knew would go nowhere, spent two years there and was laid off.

In my career I spent close to $70 million dollars and ran a 98.5% plus compliance compared to industry norms of 85 to 95%.

This is the business environment in which we live today. The best long term employees are harassed to the point they leave, their positions given to someone who'll do the job for two or three dollars less per hour. The funny thing is, management never seems to understand that kaos and sub-par performance are going to go along with the process. That' isn't a put down to the person who replaces. It's just that you can't obtain 26.5 years worth of experience in thirty days.

In the last two years at my primary job, I witnessed about 66% of long term staff forced out. This concern lost thousands of years worth of savey and competence, and never batted an eyelash.

[tortoise]

The compny knew of the legally binding contracts when they agreed the company.

They are being bought out of bankruptcy. To make this possible, the court voids contracts that make the company unsellable to outside investors. Come to grips with the basic facts of the case; the court is trying to save what is left of the company. Contracts are no longer legally binding when a company goes through a bankruptcy. Many of the contracts that the court doesn't void outright are renegotiated between various parties until suitable terms are reached that will allow the company to continue.

In the end, everyone is left holding at least part of the bag, including customers, employees, and investors. Secured debt is only partially recovered and unsecured debt (e.g. retirement healthcare in this case) is usually a write-off. It isn't just the retirees that are getting screwed in this case, just about everyone involved with the company is, and the former employees do better than most because of various socialist programs the feds put in place as a safety net. One could argue that the businesses holding unsecured debt have far more to complain about than retirees losing healthcare benefits. Get some perspective.

[MonroeDNA]

"I repeat: (2)Do you aprove of this International Socialism at American citizens' expense?(Giving billions of dollars to Russia, China, S Korea, Japan, and Germany to build steel palnts.)"

I reject your premise that free enterprise, going to the cheapest labor (Free trade) is socialist. Your definitions are completely off, so far off, that I question your true motives. From the Encarta dictionary:

so·cial·ism [ ssh lìzm ] noun 1. political system of communal ownership: a political theory or system in which the means of production and distribution are controlled by the people and operated according to equity and fairness rather than market principles

2. movement based on socialism: any of several political movements or theories of the 19th and 20th centuries based on principles of socialism, typically advocating an end to private property and the exploitation of workers

3. stage between capitalism and communism: in Marxist theory, the stage after the proletarian revolution when a society is changing from capitalism to communism, marked by pay distributed according to work done rather than need

Sounds like unions to me.

"And..Do you know what International Socialism is?"

France? Germany? Steel unions? Kyoto treaty? Tarrifs? Pat Buchannon?

[Hardcorps]

I hope you understand that your husband's company, with a 15 day notice, can terminate and/or change anything in their benefit package.

[Daus]

Do you believe the Steel industry would have remained vibrant if these handouts had not been made?

Industries such as these have no future in this country if what it requires (largely back-breaking labor) is available elsewhere cheaper and non-unionized.

[MonroeDNA]

Exactly. We're not going to pay somebody $35 an hour to dip ladels, or screw bumpers on cars. We'll buy cheaper steel elsewhere, or foreign cars. Don't ask us to subsidize overpaid labor.

[MonroeDNA]

hello? Did you say something about socialism?

Want to argue with Encarta?

[MonroeDNA]

From Webster:

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: 'sO-sh&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

[A Patriot Son]

Do you believe the Steel industry would have remained vibrant if these handouts had not been made?

Yes Absolutely, Yes!

They are still around--even as the skeletons they are so certainly they'd be vibrant without the all-out US government financed attack against them.
(And can you even imagine the modern factories they'd have with the billions of profits they'd have earned without the artificial competition the US government built against them?)

We(the US government) built the competition and continue to in this quest for globalization/world government/International Socialism or whatever you wish to call it.

[MonroeDNA]

Welcome, newbie, member of 13 days.