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So You Think You Are a Darwinian?
Royal Institute of Philosophy ^ | 1994 | D. C. Stove

Posted on 02/08/2003 7:54:52 AM PST by Ethan Clive Osgoode

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To: gore3000
At least you are honest enough to admit you are proud of being dishonest for the cause.

It is all relative my boy, someday you will learn that dishonesty is in the ear of the receiver. Honesty is wasted on people like you, and you have probably had little experience with it. Give me one reason why anyone would be willing to share anything they value with you, you have not shown yourself worthy of trust. Mostly, people tell you what you want to hear merely so that you will go away. Have I hit a chord?

141 posted on 02/10/2003 10:49:36 PM PST by TightSqueeze (From the Department of Homeland Security, sponsors of Liberty-Lite, Less Freedom! / Red Tape!)
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To: gore3000
There are some 300 amino acids in a medium sized gene. At each position there are 22 posible values.

Errrrmmm... This doesn't really follow, chemistry-wise. You might want to revise your math.

142 posted on 02/10/2003 11:22:38 PM PST by tortoise
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To: CyberCowboy777
What conclusion that validates has the world missed?

I would point out that while evolution is a valid mathematical concept (you DID know it has a proper mathematical derivation, didn't you?), that there is no proper proof that it has anything to do with speciation even if a new species evolved in front of your eyes. In fact, there is more than one viable non-evolutionary hypothesis in circulation. That said, no one (least of all ID folk) has been able to attack the fundamentals of evolution hypothesis, primarily because everyone accepts that the necessary premises exist (selection and variation). The rest is just argument fodder and most of the competing hypotheses have premises that haven't stood up nearly as well to scrutiny (including many non-ID, non-religious purely scientific alternative hypotheses, which do exist).

143 posted on 02/10/2003 11:34:42 PM PST by tortoise
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To: gore3000
The "A" in AI stands for artificial. There is nothing artificial about an organism.

I would point out the difference between "artificial" and "natural" is purely semantic. The universe can't tell the difference, and it is trivial to construct an example of why this is. Any argument against this will have to be stronger than an arbitrary semantic classification.

144 posted on 02/10/2003 11:40:20 PM PST by tortoise
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To: gore3000
You are arguing that intelligent design of a program proves random chance. Can't you see the absurdity of what you are saying?

Evidence for, not proof. That said, he was using the correct mathematical definition of "program". You, on the other hand, apparently are not. If you want to make a rigorous argument, you have to use a rigorous definition. I would suggest Kolmogorov Complexity and Its Applications (Li & Vitanyi) if you want to argue down this path. It is a good book for learning about what you are attempting to talk about.

I think a lot of interesting arguments can happen in this vein, but most people who try are woefully unprepared math-wise (it is usually graduate or post-graduate study if you are a math or a computer science major; difficult to understand and few people have been exposed to it in detail).

145 posted on 02/10/2003 11:48:36 PM PST by tortoise
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To: I got the rope
We falsify in order to make mistakes so that we can recognize them, eliminate them, and move on so that we can get closer to the truth.

That doesn't quite make sense, but I have a different question to ask you. What's your beef with the word "proof"? It's a perfectly good word. There's nothing wrong with it. There's no reason to avoid it like leprosy. It won't give you the pox. You don't have to ramble on with nonsensical rubbish like "proof has no place in science..." and the like, which is merely a concession to confused idiots anyway. Why not used a reasonable definition of the word proof? (like the one found in the dictionary, eg Webster's.) Surely, if I tell you that I have proven there is no sumo wrestler in my bedroom, you will understand me without going off into the weeds about mathematical proofs and deductive proofs, no?

146 posted on 02/11/2003 2:09:00 AM PST by Ethan Clive Osgoode
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To: I got the rope
Evolution is -- full on -- brainwashing (( redacting // deleting -- HATING conservatism )) and . . .

indoctrinating // programming LIBERALISM -- LOVING lies // bias all through America // society ! ! !

All unashamedly on the FR too ==== "fraud // corruption" ==== UNADULTERED tyranny // blasphemy !


147 posted on 02/11/2003 4:01:41 AM PST by f.Christian (( Orcs of the world : : : Take note and beware. ))
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To: f.Christian
All unashamedly on the FR too

I ain't ashamed.... // LAKE // In Jump NOW! // YOU! //

148 posted on 02/11/2003 4:06:08 AM PST by TightSqueeze (From the Department of Homeland Security, sponsors of Liberty-Lite, Less Freedom! / Red Tape!)
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To: TightSqueeze
The darwinian dichotomy (( darloserian )) . . .

evolution is a dead branch === pox on science - - -

going to the fire // ash heap of history ! !
149 posted on 02/11/2003 4:09:57 AM PST by f.Christian (( Orcs of the world : : : Take note and beware. ))
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To: tortoise
I would point out the difference between "artificial" and "natural" is purely semantic. The universe can't tell the difference,

Just show me a rock that thinks and reproduces itself and I will believe the above. You folks are really going off the cliff.

150 posted on 02/11/2003 4:27:12 AM PST by gore3000
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To: TightSqueeze
At least you are honest enough to admit you are proud of being dishonest for the cause.-me-

It is all relative my boy, someday you will learn that dishonesty is in the ear of the receiver. Honesty is wasted on people like you

Well, that's another quality of evolutionists (besides dishonesty) to say and do no matter how foul or dishonest to promote your agenda. Thanks for showing the lack of character in those who support evolution.

151 posted on 02/11/2003 4:31:51 AM PST by gore3000
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To: tortoise
There are some 300 amino acids in a medium sized gene. At each position there are 22 posible values.-me-

Errrrmmm... This doesn't really follow, chemistry-wise. You might want to revise your math.

Of course it does. In case you had not heard the 'stop' codon can sometimes code for two other amino acids. The impossibility of evolution has been shown abundantly by modern science.

152 posted on 02/11/2003 4:34:26 AM PST by gore3000
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To: tortoise
That said, no one (least of all ID folk) has been able to attack the fundamentals of evolution hypothesis, primarily because everyone accepts that the necessary premises exist (selection and variation).

Of course they have. First of all selection is a destructive force. Selection kills, it does not create new organisms. Selection thins out the gene pool, it does not create new variations. So right there the whole basic argument of evolution is false. Yes there is variation in species, but that does not prove the source of it in any way. In fact the variations are so great between species that they cannot be accounted for by evolution. Organisms are very much integrated and chance mutations cannot account for such integration. Worst of all though, we do not see, have not seen any species in the process of transforming themselves into new more complex species. If evolution were true we would indeed be seeing many species in the process of transforming themselves into new ones at present, we do not see that anywhere. In other words, there is absolutely no evidence to back up the hypothesis of evolution.

153 posted on 02/11/2003 4:43:02 AM PST by gore3000
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To: tortoise
You are arguing that intelligent design of a program proves random chance. Can't you see the absurdity of what you are saying?-me-

Evidence for, not proof. That said, he was using the correct mathematical definition of "program".

Semantics and more nonsense. You are admitting that it takes a program to make something that works like an organism. Have you seen a program ever write itself? Programs are the product of intelligent design and that evolutionists have been forced to admit that organisms are programmed shows quite well that the theory of evolution has already been disproven.

154 posted on 02/11/2003 4:48:10 AM PST by gore3000
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To: Ethan Clive Osgoode
Surely, if I tell you that I have proven there is no sumo wrestler in my bedroom, you will understand me without going off into the weeds about mathematical proofs and deductive proofs, no?

You need to realize that evolutionists allways fall back on semantics when they are shown that their theory has no scientific evidence to back it up.

155 posted on 02/11/2003 4:51:03 AM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
Thanks for showing the lack of character...

Please excuse my lack of character, it is an evolutionary thingy, Darwin isn't through with me yet! He-he, Ho-ho!

156 posted on 02/11/2003 6:20:20 AM PST by TightSqueeze (From the Department of Homeland Security, sponsors of Liberty-Lite, Less Freedom! / Red Tape!)
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To: and the horse you rode in on
>>In todays's context, as the article stated, Darwinism means a belief than man descended from animals without divine intervention, and that is believed by most educated people.<<

No, it's not. Maybe just those in your circles.

Of course, last week I heard a guy who said that everyone he knows is against war in Iraq. I guess it all depends on who you run around with.
157 posted on 02/11/2003 6:35:02 AM PST by RobRoy
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To: and the horse you rode in on
>>No one can first tell me what I believe and then tell me I am wrong. They must ask me what I believe and then try to convince me that is wrong.<<

I didn't see your name in the article anywhere.
158 posted on 02/11/2003 6:35:49 AM PST by RobRoy
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To: balrog666
Who pays these guys to spread their propaganda?
159 posted on 02/11/2003 6:36:28 AM PST by cinFLA
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To: cinFLA
>>Who pays these guys to spread their propaganda? <<

On both sides...
160 posted on 02/11/2003 7:21:08 AM PST by RobRoy
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