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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
One of the biggest problems encountered by non-Arabic speakers, when trying to read the Koran is the confusion that results in translation. The Arabic language is characterized by rhetoric, exaggeration and repetition. Then, on top of that, there are so many variations of words that, if not carefully chosen, meaning is easily changed or distorted. For example, I own a Koran that has a totally different translation of each of the passages that you posted. Here is an example:

What you posted:
“[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”

What my copy of the Koran says:
(9:29) “Fight against such of those, to whom the Scriptures were given, as believe in neither God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.”

Notice how your translation of the passage totally skips over “… to whom the Scriptures were given…” and the other large differences throughout the passage.

The difference in translation is likely the result of different interpretations that result from choosing different words that translate similarly into English. This difference is due to one accounting, or not accounting, for the rhetoric, exaggeration, and repetition that is characteristic of Arabic language and culture. I have been reading “The Arab Mind” which is required reading for all students of Middle Eastern Studies at the JFK Special Warfare School. It is required reading, because it helps special operations soldiers to prepare for dealing with Arab culture. There is an entire chapter on rhetoric, exaggeration, overassertion, and repetition in Arab culture and this is a common theme throughout the book, because of its impact on culture in causing miscommunication between Arabs and, more often, between Arabs and non-Arabs.

Ad naseum posting of Koranic passages that one interprets as hateful or evil or vicious and so on, does nothing more than highlight the shortcomings of our understanding of the religion and the ability of people to interpret the Koran to fit their agenda, because there are other common translations that are totally different.

44 posted on 04/25/2004 8:04:25 AM PDT by Voice in your head ("The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." - Thucydides)
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To: Voice in your head
What you posted:
“[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”

What my copy of the Koran says: (9:29) “Fight against such of those, to whom the Scriptures were given, as believe in neither God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.”

Notice how your translation of the passage totally skips over “… to whom the Scriptures were given…” and the other large differences throughout the passage.

In spite of wording differences, the intent and result of both translations is identical. Unbelievers are to be fought against until they pay a special tax. The result of both translations is oppression.

46 posted on 04/25/2004 8:16:33 AM PDT by aimhigh
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To: Voice in your head
I was using the M.H.Shakir translation.
You are using the Marmaduke Mohammad Pickthall translation.
Another important translation is by Yusuf Ali.

You can see all three in parallel text at
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

They also have a searchable Hadith database at
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

But I typically use the searchable Shakir Qur'an at
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/

Beats copying it by hand.

The important thing is not the words but the meaning of the words and the universal concepts being conveyed. The Arabic words translate into mental abstractions in an Arab mind just as much as someone reading it in any other language. If the meaning of the original Arabic is ambiguous, then the Arabic is as useless as any translation whether it retains that ambiguity or settles "improperly" on only one interpretation. What is important is not what it may mean to you, me or some 12th Century Islamic "scholar" but what it could mean to anyone prepared to act on it. And what an Arabs tells you does not matter. What matters is what they tell each other. The outsider is entitled to draw whatever interpretation is possible, to find the loopholes that Muslims are famous for (ex. Hudaybiyyah) and anticipate them. Ambiguity leads to duplicity and only a fool does not consider the worst possible case. The very claim that it cannot be translated therefore condemns it as worthless babble.
47 posted on 04/25/2004 11:29:25 AM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Rumble Thee Forth...)
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