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Once again Suprynowicz hits a home run.
1 posted on 02/05/2003 4:43:37 AM PST by from occupied ga
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To: from occupied ga
We need to be in space. The shuttle hasn't been the right answer for years.

This won't be popular, and you're going to get slammed for posting it (as you knew, based on your post header ;-), but there's a lot of truth here.
2 posted on 02/05/2003 4:55:36 AM PST by FreedomPoster (This space intentionally blank)
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To: from occupied ga
Bump to comment on later.
4 posted on 02/05/2003 5:20:00 AM PST by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: from occupied ga
For people who have seen this post of mine on another thread - my apologies. But this guy makes some very good points - and I experienced a lot of frustration with the things he described in the article. This is a perspective from having to work with the Shuttle from the Air Force side of the fence.....
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It's probably not "sporting" to kick a program when it's down - but it is long past time to replace the shuttle and its management infrastructure.

The Shuttle was born of a Faustian bargain between Congress, the Air Force and NASA. Originally, the Air Force had a design for a 2-stage to orbit, completely re-usable system called DynaSoar. The problem was the upfront costs of development. Congress panned it. So Air Force got with NASA and hammered out the Shuttle design (Air Force had some specific requirements of Shuttle capabilities). In order to sell the design to Congress, a certain General Abrahamson arranged it to so that Air Force promised that they would get rid of all those "costly" expendable launchers and use Shuttle exclusively for military satellite launches. Shuttle represented reduced upfront development costs - but higher operational costs - due to the non-reusable nature of key elements of the system - as in the tank and boosters. Boosters ain't really all that re-usable - and the refurbishment costs of the Shuttle itself are astronomical. But... in a climate where nobody could stay in one job longer than 4 years - else be labeled a "Homesteader" and get transferred to Timbuktu by MPC (AF personnel office) - who cares what disastrous decisions are taken? As long as the consequences are at least 4 years out.

Cut to the early 80's - working with Shuttle. As a First Lieutenant - I was assigned to work in a technology demonstrator "SDI" program (SDI office had not been created yet). This experiment was a shuttle sortie - meaning it stayed in the bay and all activities involved shuttle crew. But we were having a devil of a time with NASA. The timelines for our experiment were such that we needed more than the 12 hours per day of crew activity NASA would give us . We'd have these big meetings at Johnson, Lockheed or JPL - where NASA would stonewall us with their trump card "NASA crew rules...NASA crew rules." "OK, we said - let's look at the CAP - the Crew Activity Plan." They posted it on the projector and I asked, "What's that item labeled 'grooming'?"

"Brushing their teeth" they answered.
"A half-hour for that?"
"Yep. Can't be changed."
"Alright. At this point we have to look at double crews, to get 24 hour ops."
"No way. 24-hour ops would disturb the sleeping crews."
"What do you mean? How so? It's not like they're setting off bombs back there."
"Oh yeah, Lieutenant? Every time they maneuver - those vernier thrusters go off like cannon shots."
"Fine. Give'em some acoustic headphones...look, the shuttle is not supposed to be a Holiday Inn in the sky, it's actually supposed to support missions."

At this point, the meeting broke down very acrimoniously - and everybody scurried home to elevate the issue to where some sanity might prevail. It eventually did. We got 24 hour ops - at least we WERE going to get that. But General Abrahamson did us in, albeit indirectly.

Abrahamson, busy being shifted from each 4-year-or-less assignment, was eventually appointed head of SDI. He complained to Reagan that if he didn't have budgetary control of all SDI programs - he had no control at all. He got his way - which was a dumb move. Congress HATED the SDI program - but they didn't have an easy way to kill it. Our SDI activities were funded through generic AF space activities - some in launch operations, some in software development, R&D, etc. There was no budgetary item called "SDI". Abrahamson consolidated all our budgets and gave them one fat juicy target. And they nuked it. He asked for $1.7 billion in FY 85 - and they gave him $1.2 billion.

So what did Mr. Air-Force-will-use-only-Shuttle do? To save money by avoiding shuttle launch costs, he gave himself Special Dispensation and bought 10 expendable launchers for his other SDI programs - but left the rest of us lined up around the block to use Shuttle, which had a hopeless backlog of operational military satellites that trumped our technology-demonstrator priority. But at least he had the further thickheadedness to inadvertently put us out of our misery.

I got a call one morning from the Lockheed program director - who was looking for program redirection. Seems SDI had cut Lockheed's FY 85 $125 million budgetary allocation down to a laughable $20 million - but gave them no authorization to descope program goals. So she (actually "it", "He" had had a sex change - but that's another ridiculously unbelievable story) was calling me to ask for program descoping. I told 'her' - "You know I can't do that - We're not the Program Office. We're just the space operations office being wagged by the same stupid dog."

So what did Lockheed do? It spent $20 million at the rate of $125 million a year - driving toward the now-impossible goals requiring $125 million a year - until it went flat broke and stopped dead in its tracks. End of program. It legally had no choice to do anything other. Your tax dollars at work.

So, I concentrated on the four other technology demonstrator satellite/sortie programs in my in-basket - each one doomed to fly on Shuttle - supposedly. Every time NASA came out with a new launch schedule, we got farther back in the list - and delayed a year or more each time. This has a very real dollar impact - because you have to keep the development team employed working on that program until it launches. At one point, to save costs and bump ourselves up in the schedule we proposed to consolidate two of these programs, one deployment and one sortie - into a single Orbiter mission. But NASA said the wings would have to be strengthened to carry both - and that would happen...sometime in the future, and that Vandenberg would not be ready for polar launches for sometime anyway....NASA didn't even bother putting the wing-strengthening project on their schedule.

The Challenger explosion finished off all these four programs, along with many others. There is a billion dollar paper-weight down in Rockwell's Seal Beach facility - which was another SDI satellite. I used to go visit and see it being finalized through the big glass windows into the clean room. It was inspiring to watch. As for the other three sortie/satellites, I imagine they might be lobby sculptures, or maybe in a playground next to an old Sherman tank.

To summarize a long story, it has been my direct experience that Shuttle, and the stultified NASA management structure necessary to operate it, has been a disaster for the launch manifest. The Air Force has now completely backed out of the Shuttle-only posture that killed many satellites - cost us billions, and which delayed untold progress in space R&D.

Even 20-odd years ago, during the heady days of senior year at MIT's Aero & Astro department, when everybody wore their freshly-minted Shuttle T-shirts after the Shuttle was successfully tested, our professors were telling us that Shuttle was only an interim vehicle at best, and that there was no way that it was going to provide the $300/lb cost to Low Earth Orbit that would be necessary for serious space exploitation.

Now is the time to take most of our eggs out of the Shuttle basket. It is time to develop the Scramjet single-stage-to-orbit vehicle. This vehicle would be designed to take off and land from any major airport - accelerate to Mach 4 using standard turbojets with rocket-assist - then kick in the scramjets - which are essentially hollow tubes with fuel injectors - but hollow tubes which can achieve Mach 18 or better. It will cost a LOT of money. But it will open up Low Earth Orbit to reliable economic access (as well as commercial air travel to undreamed of swiftness), and routine, flexible and economical access to space will bring its own possibilities. To paraphrase the Midas ad, we have seen that the choice is "You can pay for a real option now, or pay through the nose to operate a white elephant later."

5 posted on 02/05/2003 5:25:42 AM PST by guitfiddlist
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To: from occupied ga
Why do we need the space shuttle?

To place, repair, and retrieve orbital satellites tha vastly improve our communications, navigation, and military power. Just because Vin can't think of a good use for the shuttle, doesn't mean there aren't any.

I ususally agree w/ VIn but he should stick to Second Amendment issues where he knows what he's talking about.

7 posted on 02/05/2003 5:45:26 AM PST by ez ("If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning." - GWB)
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To: from occupied ga
Once again Suprynowicz hits a home run.

NASA is not only ignoring the potential of privatizing space programs, but has a history of actively trying to prevent it from happening. Whewn that wholly unexpected market for tourists to the ISS at $20 million per head developed two years ago, the aging Stalinists at NASA vainly tried to stop Tito from going. AFter all, even $20 million paid for a seat would not have cvered the cost of that seat on the Shuttle. When the Russians decided that $20 million would mean a tidy profit on their much cheaper Soyuz orbiters, NASA's response was to prohibit Tito from entering any "American" part of the station.

What Shuttle, as uneconomic as it may have been, did accomplish was give us thousands of hours of flight experience with hypersonic aircraft. It's tme for corporate taxpayers to use that technological experience to build a new generation of low-cost boosters.

14 posted on 02/05/2003 6:07:47 AM PST by BlazingArizona
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To: from occupied ga
Don’t get me started on the television press corps, pretentiously intoning that "NASA now gets to work on getting the space shuttles back where they belong – into space." There’s objective analysis for you. To which channel do I flip to hear someone announce that "NASA now gets to work on getting these space shuttles where they belong – into a museum"?

Suprynowicz is either not paying attention or oversimplifying to make a point. I've heard quite a few people make the point that the Shuttles are pushing their useful life and need to be replaced by a new surface-LEO vehicle.

That said, he's right about the self-perpetuation of the NASA-contractor establishment being an obstacle to progress.

18 posted on 02/05/2003 6:19:29 AM PST by steve-b
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To: from occupied ga; guitfiddlist
Thanks. Nasa has never been other than a 'weak sister' for the American military, and is neither 'guns' or 'butter'.
34 posted on 02/05/2003 8:23:41 AM PST by Crowcreek
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To: from occupied ga
This article is claptrap, ideological dimwittedness... if the intellect used to come up with this drivel were converted to electricity, you might have enough to toast bread, LIGHTLY!

The ideological idiots that moronically put for the notion that private enterprise can do space better understand NOTHING. NASA's budget this year is roughtly $3.5 BILLION dollars... for the space program to have reached were we are today it has taken 50 years and adjusted for inflation TRILLIONS of dollars, even if you buy into the lunacy that because NASA is government run that most of its money is wasted... you still have a tab of 100's of Billions.

Companies won't put forth that sort of outlay for payoffs that are not guaranteed or predictible. The space program and its offshoots have given us huge technological advances and commerical applications... they have improved life for mankind. Many of the commercial applications were not even imagined at the time the technology was developed.

You can no more effectively privatize the space program than you can privatize the military. I know the hard right ideology says, everything government is evil, and private enterprise can do better... but the fact is, that is just not the case IN ALL THINGS. Space exploration is definately one of the areas where private enterprise is not going to be able to replace government funded research and action... its just not going to happen folks.

Private enterprise is a great thing, and I personally enjoy it, and view it as one of the greatest things this nation has going for it. That however does not cloud my judgement on all public projects and works.
37 posted on 02/05/2003 8:36:56 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: from occupied ga
I can see this is already degenerating into the "nee-ner, nee-ner, NEE-ner" debate I though it would while reading it, but I just wanted to let you know that I thoroughly enjoyed that article.
51 posted on 02/05/2003 11:21:31 AM PST by Wolfie
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To: from occupied ga
BTTT
73 posted on 02/05/2003 2:14:02 PM PST by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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