From NASA engineering film: Sequential pix of debris hitting Columbia's wing

NASA via CNN Online & Yahoo News ^ | 2/3/03 | Wolfstar

[Wolfstar]

Released Monday morning, a high-speed NASA engineering film shows a piece of debris falling from the large external tank on the space shuttle Columbia's liftoff and hitting the orbiter's left wing. Bear in mind that these are extreme close-ups of a high-speed event. In the top couple of photos, you see only the top of the broken-off piece. Most of it is in the shadows. Depending on which clip you see and how slowly it is run, to the uninitiated person's eye, it can look either like the debris strikes the wing hard enough to pulverize the debris, or the debris strikes a glancing blow and bounces off in the direction of the main and booster engine exhaust.

[Jael]

I don't mind people disagreeing with me. I do mind it when people start lying about me. :-)

Thanks.

[freepersup]

In fairness to all, the proper question to ask isn't a 'why wasn't something done', but a 'what can be done' question.

I believe once the orbiter program resumes there will be at least one space suit on every shuttle for inspections and/or repair.

I believe a program will be developed to make onboard repairs to damaged tiles, should such a condition be determined as being the root cause in this loss.

In the near future, I believe an escape system will be devised. Whether it is parked at the space station or launched from earth or is incorporated into a new design for a space plane, an escape contingency will be developed.

[TennesseeProfessor]

Well Professor, How would it dock with Columbia with no docking interface? If it had a docking interface how would it dock with the space lab attached?

Rememer that the Atlantis in its hypothetical mission can bring up whatever we think would be helpful, including EVA suits for everybody, a wrench and arm to remove the science lab, a second docking adaptor for Columbia, etc, etc.

No I don't have an itemized list of exactly what Atlantis would have needed to carry to rescue the crew. My point is the mantra "There is nothing that could have been done" is unproven and highly suspect.

Ummmm, the reentry pattern is designed to reduce heating as much as possible anyway. It would be senseless to design a reentry pattern that did not reduce heating as much as possible.

I was taught that the current reentry pattern was a trade off between a steep angle (way too much heat) and a shallow angle (low heat, but a risk of skipping off the atmosphere and careening into space). I also notice that the breakup happened when the shuttle was entering a left roll. I don't know if changing the roll pattern would have had any affect at all on wing stresses, but from what I can tell it wasn't even considered.

[Fred Mertz]

I've learned bunches from your posts over the past few days. Thanks muchly;)

[Howlin]

See there, I knew I remembered you; you were on that Laci Peterson thread one night, saying everybody was lying about you!

I'll be ignorning you now!

[Stefan Stackhouse]

Hopping on to this thread very late, but for over a day now I've been arguing against this rush to judgment wrt the insulating foam debris strike, for much the same reasons you have mentioned. I believe that damage from an in-orbit collision with a meteor or space debris is another hypothetical cause that has not yet been eliminated and should at least be investigated. Your thoughts?

[Jhoffa_]

You have mail..

[freepersup]

As far as tile repair goes, a cold mix of some kind may be feasible.

A mold that could be adjusted for height, width, and depth and where each side of the mold could be adjusted for skew and plumb, to fit the unique space of nearly every single tile on board.

The wings leading edge would be a completely different breed as the curvature of the leading edge would pose a significant engineering feat as to replicating a tile with a mold. It's not impossible to do. It would require enormous desire, committment, and will to accomplish.

[Clean_Sweep]

"there will be at least one space suit on every shuttle for inspections and/or repair.

I believe a program will be developed to make onboard repairs to damaged tiles, should such a condition be determined as being the root cause in this loss.

In the near future, I believe an escape system will be devised"

I think it's fair question to ask why these were not standard on all flights up to now. After all your probably not a rocket scientist and you arrived at reasonable safety measures for some emergencies that anyone planing a mission should have taken into consideration.

What emergency plan and equipment was provided?

[Cold Heat]

Here is my problem regarding the strength of the tiles.

I have held a sample of it in my hand. It is very light, but not porous or anything like that. It is affixed solidly to the skin and I believe it could be easily gouged with something sharp however a 15,000 mile per hour wind won't take it off or damage it in any way. Air has a fairly good abrasive factor and is considered to be rated pretty high.

This foam insulation, I am also familiar with since my days in plant construction. It is also light, but porous. It is soft enough to squash between your fingers to nothing but a light yellow dust. It has no strength without it's coating.

Another observation.....When I had a office downtown a few years ago, a rat ran across the floor and sat in the fireplace. I kept a .357 mag in the top drawer at the time and I busted his little butt with it. The fire place was old and I was sure that I damaged the brick. What I found was the bullets barely made a mark and one brick (standard house type) was gouged about a 16th of a inch. This was at a 90 degree angle to the brick.

The things I learned about the characteristics of insulation and the time I held some of that insulation, (at the NASA plant in New Orleans, still a stock holder BTW), lead me to be skeptical, but not blind to this theory. It just seems hard to believe.

[Cold Heat]

We are on the same page!

[Cold Heat]

As usual, you are full of it.

[Clean_Sweep]

What does shooting a brick wall 10 inches thick have to do the shuttle? Why did you expect soft materials like lead and copper to penetrate something as hard a brick wall.

[freepersup]

Is there proof that the object stiking the underside of the wing is insulation ? Or is it ice ? Can the main fuel tank be inspected, or has it been inspected already for insulation loss, and is the conclusion affirmative that a loss of insulation took place ?

[Clean_Sweep]

Have the shuttles ever been hit by space debris in the past? If they have, what were the effects. What plans or design features have been included for this type of incident if it is a probability.

[Captain Beyond]

He is giving you a comparison example of the effects of impact on the strength of different materials.

[Cold Heat]

Is there proof that the object stiking the underside of the wing is insulation ? Or is it ice ? Can the main fuel tank be inspected, or has it been inspected already for insulation loss, and is the conclusion affirmative that a loss of insulation took place ?

Good question.....The answer is that they are not sure. The tank is destroyed on re-entry. The shuttle crew did take pics of the tank on separation, and NASA would know if there was damage. Unfortunately, the pics were shot with 35mm film. (hope they find it intact)

The stuff that hit the shuttle could be ice, but sure looks like insulation because of the dust. The stuff is like powder when it breaks up, and it takes little effort to break it up.

When installed on boilers and hot piping, a metal cover is put over it to keep it intact and dry, or a epoxy paper is put over it and spayed with more stuff.(epoxy)

[Cold Heat]

What does shooting a brick wall 10 inches thick have to do the shuttle?

Nothing, but is illustrates the strength of composite materials.

You can totally destroy a brick with the right stress at the right point, but when part of a assembly, they can withstand tremendous forces.

Just some brain food. BTW, it was not ten inches thick, but standard house bricks. It was a home made 70 year old fireplace built by unskilled labor. (the only kind we have in south Arkansas)

[TheDon]

The crew was obviously willing to accept great risks, that is not the point here. It is NASA's job not to impose unneccessary risks on the crews. Just because the crew is willing to take the risk doesn't mean we should make them.

[Khepera]

yea but it looks like a fake photo to me.