Professor's Snub of Creationists Prompts U.S. Inquiry

New York Times ^ | 2/02/03 | NICK MADIGAN

[PatrickHenry]

Truth is not threatened by inquiry; but resistance to such inquiry is prima facie cause for such inquiry.

Yes. Alas, we differ as to which one (the student or the professor) has the closed mind.

[longshadow]

Inquisitorial Placemarker!

[Alamo-Girl]

I want to absorb everything, PatrickHenry! I don't restrict my surfing to websites that agree with my worldview. How could I learn otherwise?

[PatrickHenry]

I want to absorb everything, PatrickHenry! I don't restrict my surfing to websites that agree with my worldview. How could I learn otherwise?

Most commendable. But one does need to employ rational epistemological filters. For example: THE TIME CUBE .

[Nebullis]

The DOJ is compelled to investigate any complaint.

Do you have a source for that statement?

I suppose frivolously ludicrous complaints can be closed without investigation. This case has caused such a local and national uproar, however, that it isn't frivolous, even if it is found to be meritless after investigation.

[Alamo-Girl]

LOL! Thanks for the chuckle!

You’ve known me for a long time, PatrickHenry, so I hope by now you realize that I am epistemologically zealous when it comes to math and science. I am infinitely more zealous when it comes to the Word. But I have never had a problem reconciling the two.

With regard to science, my worldview can be summarized by these quotes from Einstein:

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

I have deep faith that the principle of the universe will be beautiful and simple.

These thoughts did not come in any verbal formulation. I rarely think in words at all. A thought comes, and I may try to express it in words afterward.

And my favorite…

"The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that there is."

We have a common goal in finding answers to great questions. IMHO, our difference is perspective.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the clarification! My ears really perked up with the original observation because it dawned on me that we might have had more success in the Clinton years by "freeping" the DOJ with legitimate complaints. That would have kept Reno and crew too busy for Elian, et al (LOL!)

[f.Christian]

Logic requires you to be right more than one time . . .

and even one time w/o twisting the facts to prove a fallacy from the start to the ending . . .

evolution will never be a science - - - only a cult // ideology ==== an aberrant theory of science !

[Nebullis]

My ears really perked up with the original observation because it dawned on me that we might have had more success in the Clinton years by "freeping" the DOJ with legitimate complaints.

What makes you think legitimate complaints aren't investigated?

[Nebullis]

If it can be determined from the complaint that it is frivolous, then the case can be closed. But, in the current complaint, such couldn't be determined, because there wasn't enough information. That's why the DOJ asked Texas Tech for its policy on recommendations (there is none). The investigation will determine if the complaint has merit.

[SkyRat]

Einstein believed in a creator ....

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas (Einstein's secretary) and Banesh Hoffman, and published by Princeton University Press..

"Our situation on this earth seems strange. Every one of us appears here involuntary and uninvited for a short stay, without knowing the whys and the wherefore. In our daily lives we only feel that man is here for the sake of others, for those whom we love and for many other beings whose fate is connected with our own." ... "The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that there is." Einstein's speech 'My Credo' to the German League of Human Rights, Berlin, autumn 1932, Einstein: A Life in Science, Michael White and John Gribbin, Page 262.

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." Upon being asked if he believed in God by Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of the Institutional Synagogue, New York, April 24, 1921, Einstein: The Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark, Page 502.

[Lurking Libertarian]

Its too bad that Albert Einstein, who believed in a creator, would not have met the professor's standards. As limitating as you may think it is to believe in a creator

Where does this professor say that you cannot believe in a Creator? Did you read the article?

[Alamo-Girl]

Oh, I suspect the person filing the complaint always believes it is legitimate. But I would imagine the DOJ gets a ton of such complaints and sorts them down into areas and priorities for assignment. From there, I would expect the low priority complaints to go on the back burner until they become a non-issue.

That's just a guess based on the relative size of the DOJ and that even the U.S. attorneys are political appointees. (One of the first things Clinton and Reno did was to fire all US attorneys and replace them with their own.)

In sum, I see the DOJ as primarily motivated by the law - but subject to politics. That's why, in this case, because an "unintended consequence" could be religious institutions having to hire pagans - I wouldn't be surprised to see it on Ashcroft's desk. He might prefer to "punt" the underlying issue to the White House or Congress to clarify the law before doing anything else. That would be a good result, IMHO.

[balrog666]

Yes. Alas, we differ as to which one (the student or the professor) has the closed mind.

That statement seems to summarize the entire thread thus far.

[Nebullis]

In sum, I see the DOJ as primarily motivated by the law - but subject to politics.

I agree. I would add but, subject to religious beliefs as well. That trumps law, doesn't it? And this is a case certain creationist want to see processed.

[Nebullis]

Just a reminder of Micah Spradling's own view on the subject of evolution: (emphasis mine)

"I really don't see how believing in the evolution of humanity has anything to do with patient care or studying science."

[Physicist]

Just go to the professors web site, he specifically states that you must accept the scientic explaination for the origion of humans.

If that's the best you can do, I consider you refuted.

[Always Right]

From the Professor's web site:

If you set up an appointment to discuss the writing of a letter of recommendation, I will ask you: "How do you think the human species originated?" If you cannot truthfully and forthrightly affirm a scientific answer to this question, then you should not seek my recommendation for admittance to further education in the biomedical sciences.

The professor specifically states origination of the 'human species' several times. This indicates that he will not accept any non-scientific belief in the creation of man, and thus rules out any belief in a creator, even a non-Christian belief such as Einstien held.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post!

I would add but, subject to religious beliefs as well. That trumps law, doesn't it? And this is a case certain creationist want to see processed.

Interesting that you should bring that up. Oath of office is a promise to God which must be kept, if a person is a Christian.

A classic case is Justice Scalia, who is Catholic and has to rule on abortion and the death penalty. He ruled with the majority in Planned Parenthood v. Casey despite his Catholic beliefs.

And here is Scalia again Justice Scalia vs. the Pope - Should every Catholic judge in America quit? By Dahlia Lithwick

For the second time in two months, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia has pitted his formidable brain against the Catholic Church and its increasingly strong stand against the death penalty. Addressing students at Georgetown University last week, Scalia argued that Catholic judges who believe the church's teaching that capital punishment is wrong should not be on the bench, stating that "any Catholic jurists (with such concerns) ... would have to resign." The comment didn't win him many fans. Catholics objected to Scalia's public renunciation of the pope's teachings. Religious judges balked at the implication that they cannot separate their religious convictions from their judicial duties. And many of us came away with the uneasy sense that such personal revelations by Supreme Court justices about ideology and religion compromise judicial neutrality.

[f.Christian]

Just calling evolution a theory is an overstatement . . .

only an idea // mood // feeling - - -

an ideology === perverse oddity ! ! !


To: f.Christian

Conjecture masquarading as science might be more appropos - I agree.


71 posted on 01/21/2003 12:04 PM PST by Havoc ((Evolution is a theory, Creationism is God's word, ID is science, Sanka is coffee))

DOGMA masquarading as science might be more appropos - I agree.

Main Entry: dog·ma
Pronunciation: 'dog-m&, 'däg-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural dogmas also dog·ma·ta /-m&-t&/
Etymology: Latin dogmat-, dogma, from Greek, from dokein to seem -- more at DECENT
Date: 1638
1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets < pedagogical dogma > c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

Main Entry: 1con·jec·ture
Pronunciation: k&n-'jek-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin conjectura, from conjectus, past participle of conicere, literally, to throw together, from com- + jacere to throw -- more at JET
Date: 14th century
1 obsolete a : interpretation of omens b : SUPPOSITION
2 a : inference from defective or presumptive evidence b : a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork c : a proposition (as in mathematics) before it has been proved or disproved