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Astronomer saw shuttle apparently in trouble over California
San Diego Union Tribune ^ | 02/01/03 | John Antczak

Posted on 02/01/2003 2:25:26 PM PST by socal_parrot

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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
How can they make that statement based on no evidence whatsoever? It was irresponsible. Any account such as that should be investigated and verified.

Exactly. This immediate CYA & debunk mode is what got Tommy Thompson in to tough trouble, over anthrax.

Remember that first man who got it in Florida and the talking point explanation?: Must have picked it up by drinking from streams out in the countryside, where he used to jog. (Get a grip.)

261 posted on 02/02/2003 11:23:01 AM PST by unspun (The most terrorized place in America is a mother's womb.)
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To: ErnBatavia
Thanks.

BTW, Check this out. It seems as if Richard Feynman was right.

262 posted on 02/02/2003 11:44:33 AM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (®)
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
True enough. But pieces of debris or possibly protective heat shielding tiles coming off and trailing the orbiter is not. That's what needs to be looked at.

But again, note that NASA has specifically mentioned that seeing "bright blobs" falling behind the shuttle as it re-enters is something that is seen even during normal re-entries, as the plasma around the shuttle builds and then "blows" off as it travels.

263 posted on 02/02/2003 12:44:27 PM PST by Dan Day
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To: unspun
militarize, colonize and explore/develop potential resources for trade, business and the defense and expansion of human liberties and the dreams of mankind.... for starters.

some folks are content to stay on the land, fearing travel in the sea and air.
some folks are not.
explorers, pioneers and settlers... are ALWAYS looking for opportunities to push beyond the current envelope's limitations.

264 posted on 02/02/2003 1:27:16 PM PST by Robert_Paulson2 (clintonsgotusbytheballs?)
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To: Robert_Paulson2
Not just becasue I've read C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy, I'm not quite sure I'd want mankind to spread its influence much further into God's creation....

I think we have a pretty good idea of Mars' raw materials; perhaps a few more drones could help us find out further.

We can get plenty of hydrogen here on Earth, for our new round of engines; I like that idea.
265 posted on 02/02/2003 1:59:43 PM PST by unspun (. . . . under God . . . . ( * ) . . ( * ) . . . .)
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To: Fury
HIGHLY RECOMMEND SKIMMING THROUGH THIS THREAD FOR FAQ&A
266 posted on 02/02/2003 2:02:49 PM PST by unspun (. . . . under God . . . . ( * ) . . ( * ) . . . .)
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To: don-o
Nope. Had that been happening, the crew would have given a call.

These sensors fed information to Mission Control and detected problems over California. The crew would not be aware of an underwing problems unless the information was fed to them. This isn't a car. There are more than four "guages". The thousands of sensors do not all feed to the crew.

267 posted on 02/02/2003 3:00:53 PM PST by #3Fan
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To: don-o
I retract that statement. I believe it is possible that the atronomer did see tiles falling off the wing.

Yeah, a plasma trail would not have excessively bright spots relative to the rest of the trail. Looks like tiles (or something) began ripping off over California leading to a burn-through over Texas a few minutes later when the re-entry was at maximum heat stage.

I'll go out on a limb a say that was ice that hit the wing at launch and not foam. You can see it spray. I wouldn't think a chunk of foam would spray after impacting the wing.

268 posted on 02/02/2003 3:31:07 PM PST by #3Fan
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To: snopercod; r9etb
That would also help explain why the orbiter got sidewise in the first place. I can't recall at what altitude the aerosurfaces become effective.

That picture you guys are going off of isn't a sideways shuttle, it's a point of light that's out of focus. I know it looks like a shuttle, but it's simply the lens playing tricks being that it's out of focus.

269 posted on 02/02/2003 3:35:09 PM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
it's a point of light that's out of focus. I know it looks like a shuttle, but it's simply the lens playing tricks being that it's out of focus.

Uh huh. Not bloody likely that an out-of-focus point of light will be shuttle shaped, including the proper delta shape, a body flap, and OMS pods, among other things.

270 posted on 02/02/2003 5:18:16 PM PST by r9etb
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To: TLBSHOW
An Italian astronaut who's been on two space flights says an incorrect angle of re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere could have caused the space shuttle Columbia to disintegrate.

That would have been observed, understood, and immediately corrected. The ground guys watch that stuff very closely.

271 posted on 02/02/2003 5:20:06 PM PST by r9etb
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To: AlabamaRebel
I may be wrong, but when a fighter jet breaks the speed of sound you get a sonic boom. And the shuttles was doing, what, 16 times that. It would stand to reason there would be a sonic boom. But then I am only guessing, I have never seen the shuttle fly except on TV.

I'm sure you are right. The only difference is that the shuttle is quite high and perhaps the sound is not as noticeable as a jet, which is flying lower. I haven't heard a sonic boom in years. We used to hear them all the time. Either I am going deaf, or I no longer live in a flight path! Or perhaps regulations have been enforced to limit sonic booms in populated areas.

272 posted on 02/02/2003 5:42:18 PM PST by afraidfortherepublic
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To: r9etb
Uh huh. Not bloody likely that an out-of-focus point of light will be shuttle shaped, including the proper delta shape, a body flap, and OMS pods, among other things.

Look at the picture, it's perfectly symetrical. The shuttle being 40 miles in the air would not be that distinct anyway with a video camera. Besides, the shuttle has 3 main engines in a triangle shape in the center of the rear. If your picture was a distinct picture of the shuttle, it shows two main engines widely separated and too far up. The picture is simply an out-of-focus point of light.

On top of all this, it's physically impossible for the shuttle to go 16 times the speed of sound at 207,000 feet intact in any position but nose first. It would instantaneously disentegrate in any other position.

273 posted on 02/02/2003 6:02:28 PM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
Look at the picture, it's perfectly symetrical.

It's not "perfectly" symmetrical. There are dissimilarites between right and left sides. Look, e.g., at the broken right corner of the "body flap". And even so -- the Shuttle was symmetrical, so we'd rather expect to see symmetry, right?

The shuttle being 40 miles in the air would not be that distinct anyway with a video camera.

True enough. A very good professional camera might be able to get a reasonable shot, but this does seem to be a bit far away.

Besides, the shuttle has 3 main engines in a triangle shape in the center of the rear. If your picture was a distinct picture of the shuttle, it shows two main engines widely separated and too far up.

The two "nozzles" and the bulges they're on, are exactly where you'd expect to see the OMS engines and OMS pods, and they're properly placed with respect to the thing that looks like the body flap.

The three mains are below and between the OMS engines. If a Shuttle was actually flying sideways, I'd expect them to have been torn off. There's no indication of a hole there -- I cannot explain that.

The picture is simply an out-of-focus point of light.

Unlikely that an out-of-focus point of light would so closely match the known and identifiable features of a space shuttle.

On top of all this, it's physically impossible for the shuttle to go 16 times the speed of sound at 207,000 feet intact in any position but nose first. It would instantaneously disentegrate in any other position.

Untrue. The Shuttle never flies "nose first" during entry. It flies belly first. The "sideways" flight could be initiated by a failure to properly come out of one of the S-turns. Indications are that the control surfaces on the left wing were not behaving properly, so it's quite likely that the soon-to-die Shuttle had a period of sideways motion.

Flying sideways, it would certainly break up, but not necessarily "instantaneously." I've seen video of the far more fragile external tank tumbling through a similar flight regime for a long time before it finally broke up.

And, of course, the Shuttle did break up only a few seconds after this video was shot -- so your only argument is that word "instantaneous."

274 posted on 02/02/2003 6:51:29 PM PST by r9etb
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To: afraidfortherepublic
No you haven't gone deaf. Rumer has it that sonic booms punch holes in the ozone layer so regulations were passed stoping jets from breaking the sound barrier.
275 posted on 02/02/2003 7:03:52 PM PST by AlabamaRebel
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To: r9etb
It's not "perfectly" symmetrical. There are dissimilarites between right and left sides. Look, e.g., at the broken right corner of the "body flap". And even so -- the Shuttle was symmetrical, so we'd rather expect to see symmetry, right?

Believe what you will. That is not a distinct shuttle, it is an out of focus point of light.

The two "nozzles" and the bulges they're on, are exactly where you'd expect to see the OMS engines and OMS pods, and they're properly placed with respect to the thing that looks like the body flap.

Believe what you will.

Unlikely that an out-of-focus point of light would so closely match the known and identifiable features of a space shuttle.

Believe what you will.

Untrue. The Shuttle never flies "nose first" during entry. It flies belly first.

The first point of the shuttle to reach an eastern plane as it flies east is the nose, at a 40 degree angle but it is the nose. I consider that "nose-first".

The "sideways" flight could be initiated by a failure to properly come out of one of the S-turns. Indications are that the control surfaces on the left wing were not behaving properly, so it's quite likely that the soon-to-die Shuttle had a period of sideways motion.

Believe what you will. At mach 16 at 207,000 feet, the shuttle would've instantaneously disentegratated when it moved even slightly away from nose-first.

Flying sideways, it would certainly break up, but not necessarily "instantaneously." I've seen video of the far more fragile external tank tumbling through a similar flight regime for a long time before it finally broke up.

Was it going mach 16?

And, of course, the Shuttle did break up only a few seconds after this video was shot -- so your only argument is that word "instantaneous."

And I stand by that wholeheartedly. There is no way the shuttle can be sideways intact at mach 16 at 207,000 feet. Not even slightly sideways.

276 posted on 02/02/2003 7:08:42 PM PST by #3Fan
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To: #3Fan
The first point of the shuttle to reach an eastern plane as it flies east is the nose, at a 40 degree angle but it is the nose. I consider that "nose-first".

Your nose first argument assumes controlled flight. But of course, I'm not claiming it was controlled flight at this point.

Was it going mach 16?

Yes. And some of it was "sideways," too.

As for the rest of your silly post, believe what you will. Your unwillingness to even to concede the obvious appearance of OMS pods and body flaps leads me to believe you're out of your depth.

277 posted on 02/02/2003 7:28:14 PM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
Your nose first argument assumes controlled flight. But of course, I'm not claiming it was controlled flight at this point.

I think you've forgotten what we were talking about. I said the shuttle cannot fly at mach 16 at any position other than nose first. You said the shuttle flies belly first. I said the first point of the shuttle to reach an eastern plane as it flies east is the nose when it's in a normal descent, so I call that nose-first. I'll reiterate that it is impossible for the shuttle to fly intact at mach 16 at 207,000 feet in any position other than nose first as I've described it. Any other deviation even slightly off from nose first would cause instantaneous disentegration. There is no way it could complete a half turn without disentegrating at mach 16 at 207,000 feet. The picture is not of a sideways shuttle. It is an out-of-focus point of light.

Yes. And some of it was "sideways," too.

The External Fuel Tank is jettisoned in space and burns up in the upper atmosphere. It can tumble intact in space but not in the atmosphere.

As for the rest of your silly post,...

? What's wrong with you?

...believe what you will. Your unwillingness to even to concede the obvious appearance of OMS pods and body flaps leads me to believe you're out of your depth.

You admit that a video camera cannot distinguish a shuttle at these distances and then try to say the image is a distinct shuttle that is sideways at mach 16 at 207,000 feet. I don't think it's me that's out of any depth.

278 posted on 02/02/2003 8:11:09 PM PST by #3Fan
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To: TLBSHOW
Columbia flies over the Owens Valley in California-


279 posted on 02/02/2003 8:32:58 PM PST by socal_parrot
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To: socal_parrot
Early saturday Fox was showing an ameture video that they are no longer showing? (Confiscated by NASA) In that video STS107 is a normal single glowing contact with no contrail. @2 seconds later there is a bright flash and a small single piece is seen falling away with a slight contrail to it. Within seconds STS107 begins to develope a large contrail that is not normal as the second target piece also developes a larger contrail. Within another 5 seconds avery large contrail developes with what apperas to be tiles blowing off as there is a cloud of small targets coming off. Within a few more seconds a huge firball starts and the contrail is huge and as the contrail rotates an explosion (main engine tanks) creates a greator puff into the contrail which now appears to goe more sideways and than all hell breaks loose and now STS107 begins to massively break up into large parts and than multiple break ups into many parts.

Fox showed this video for a few times until around 1:00 PM pacific time and than cut off the first @7 seconds of this video when shwoing it again. Why? Anyone else recall this amature video?

280 posted on 02/02/2003 8:33:45 PM PST by Mat_Helm
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