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To: Nebullis
Molecular clock estimates range from 5-8 million years from the human-chimp ancestor. A conservative estimate of 5 million years ignores the recent circa 7 million yo hominid find

That is a lot to hang on one find that may or may not have that age. I am using numbers provided by jennyp and agreed to by Condorman. They will attest I'm sure that I have been more than fair on the numbers, giving in to their own numbers at every turn.

It doesn't change much regarding the estimates of about 1% difference in coding regions between chimps and humans. That difference is perfectly reasonable with what we know about mutation rates.

I don't see where it is reasonable. I know some mtDNA regions are hyper mutational, but not chromosomal DNA. I don't see how the observed difference squares with the H-W laws we have been discussing on this thread. Even the outrageous pro-evo assumptions I made generate a differece of less than 1% of the observed differences (400K vs. 42 million). And its not 1%, its AT LEAST 1.4% (a 40% difference) in useful genes alone even if all of the non-coding genes are true junk, which is unlikely.

I invite you to do your own homework

Since when is supporting evolution MY homework? The assignment falls to those who proclaim evolution. My homework has convinced me that the scenarios needed to close the gene gap by known natural causes in the time allowed are unreasonable. You were invited to this thread by C-man in hopes that you had some hard data that indicated otherwise.

If you in fact have such data, you might as well present it. If not, I think it is fair for thread participants and observors to conclude that the chimp-man common ancestor hypothesis is unlikley.

within that percentage difference, neutral substitutions, that is, mutations that are not fixed, are included

OK, let's make sure we are meaning the same thing by our terms. I consider a gene pattern "fixed" when it is found throughout a population, regardless of whether it is neutral or helpful.

If you are arguing that all 1.42 million fixed differences are favorable rather than neutral then you are arguing gore3000's original position. It was one of the things that I gave in on, as jennyp argued that the 1.42 million represented fixed neutral as well as favorable mutations.

If there are that many FAVORABLE mutations fixed, then there must have been thousands of times that many neutral ones. That makes the chimp-man scenario even more unlikely.

79 posted on 02/13/2003 6:15:46 PM PST by Ahban (he who picks the terms wins the debate)
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To: Ahban
If you are arguing that all 1.42 million fixed differences are favorable rather than neutral ...

The mutations include favorable, neutral, and unfavorable ones. What's more, they include polymorphisms, or unfixed mutations. Those polymorphisms include favorable, neutral, and unfavorable mutations.

81 posted on 02/13/2003 7:26:23 PM PST by Nebullis
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