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To: the_doc; RnMomof7; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M; Jean Chauvin; gdebrae; A.J.Armitage; ...
You wrote: "The Church became the spiritual entity in which the promises to national Israel were fulfilled. This agrees with what Paul says about the "seeds of Abraham" in Galatians! [It also fits Paul's statement that the Christians are actually the True Jews--i.e., the true heirs of all that Judaism itself signified!])"

Here's an interesting quote in light of what you wrote:

"... Background to what Jesus said [John 15: 1-8]: It's not nice imagery. It's not that Jesus said, "how can I say this in a way they will understand." Jesus was saying something very very profound, and especially for the Hebrew mind.

When Jesus said "I am the vine", those who listened thought of the older Testament of these words (and I could cite many more):

Psa 80:8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

Psa 80:9 Thou preparedst [room] before it, and didst cause it to take deep root, and it filled the land.

Psa 80:10 The hills were covered with the shadow of it, and the boughs thereof [were like] the goodly cedars.

Psa 80:11 She sent out her boughs unto the sea, and her branches unto the river.

Isa 5:1 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts [is] the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

Jer 2:2 Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land [that was] not sown.

Jer 2:21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me?

Eze 19:10 Thy mother [is] like a vine in thy blood, planted by the waters: she was fruitful and full of branches by reason of many waters.

Eze 19:11 And she had strong rods for the sceptres of them that bare rule, and her stature was exalted among the thick branches, and she appeared in her height with the multitude of her branches.

Eze 19:12 But she was plucked up in fury, she was cast down to the ground, and the east wind dried up her fruit: her strong rods were broken and withered; the fire consumed them.

Eze 19:13 And now she [is] planted in the wilderness, in a dry and thirsty ground.

Eze 19:14 And fire is gone out of a rod of her branches, [which] hath devoured her fruit, so that she hath no strong rod [to be] a sceptre to rule. This [is] a lamentation, and shall be for a lamentation.

Hosa 10:1a Israel [is] an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself ..

When Jesus said, "I am the true vine", his Jewish hearers thought of the verses that I just read to you. During the Maccabean period, the coinage of God's people had a vine on it as a symbol of Isreal. If I am to tell you, "I am the Eagle", what would you think? If you're an American you would think that's arrogant, and that's presumptuous.

When Jesus said, "I am the vine", and listen very carefully, he was saying, "I am the essence of Isreal."

He was saying, "I am the prototype of which Isreal is the type."

He was saying, "I am the personification of everything God's people were ever meant to be."

He was saying, "I am the reality of all that God has ever proposed to do in the entire history of the human race." ~

Dr. Steve Brown http://www.keylife.org
37 posted on 01/31/2003 6:03:12 AM PST by Matchett-PI (Clinton is incorrectly portrayed as "a man".)
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To: Matchett-PI; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7; gal220; nobdysfool; Jerry_M; A.J.Armitage; CCWoody
...your point being that Israel is now revealed to be a spiritual body which includes the Church itself.

(That's a good way to state the amillennial position, I think. Membership in Israel is a matter of election.)

42 posted on 01/31/2003 8:32:48 AM PST by the_doc
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