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Solzhenitsyn Book Infuriates Russian Jews
News Max ^ | Jan. 25, 2003

Posted on 01/27/2003 3:10:30 PM PST by Ivan the Terrible

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To: Spirited
Interesting use of words: "...the Jew...", I've heard that before, used by certain types of individuals I didn't get along with to well.
81 posted on 02/04/2003 4:59:59 PM PST by Stavka2 (Setting the record.)
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To: rmlew; MarMema
Considering that there are several diverging strains of Judism, hardly is religion the common characteristic. Semeritans were just as Jewish in their faith as Hebrews, but were dispised for being ethnically impure. Jewish is both a religion and a nationality, that is why it is listed as such on passports in most of the world. You can be one without the other.

As for Christianity, it formerly split when the Apostale James was murdered by a mob in Jerusalem.

82 posted on 02/04/2003 5:03:45 PM PST by Stavka2 (Setting the record.)
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To: Spirited
They were Jews by birth, but are no longer Jews. You can no more be a Christian and Jew than a Christian and Muslim.

That is one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard. You don't loose your ethnicity by changing religion, your DNA doesn't magically change.

83 posted on 02/04/2003 5:05:29 PM PST by Stavka2 (Setting the record.)
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To: Spirited
Sorry, that wasn't aimed at you.
84 posted on 02/04/2003 5:06:05 PM PST by Stavka2 (Setting the record.)
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To: Stavka2
Sorry to point something out there, the Jewish landowners did not get special treatment because they were jews, they were killed by fellow jews who were running the state terror organs and were killing off any ethnic middle class.

I believe that a disproportionately high number of Jews died relative to their numbers in teh middle class. At any rate, your claim proves that this was not a Jewish program against Christians, but a communist one against class enemies.

. And for the record, half the people killed in the concentration camps by the Nazies were Christians, mostly Poles.
1/9 Christian Poles died. 2/3 of European Jews were killed. That is a huge difference.

. Jews have suffered, but to say they have some kind of monopoly on being persecuted and are innocent of persecution is ludicrous to the extreme
I have never claimed this.
Certainly the Roma/Gypsies suffered a similar fate.

Hebrews treated the minority Semaritans....who were also Jewish by religion.

Samaritans are not Jews by religion. They are followers of a closely related sect that began diverging in the 10th Century BCE, after the United Kingdom split into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms. The North, dominated by the tribe of Ephraim began to change the common religion in ways influenced by neighboring Semetic religions.
Many from the Northern Kingdom fled to Judah after the Assyrians invaded.
Some picked up Jewish customs. Others kept their own. After the Babylonians exiled most citizens of the Southern Kingdom, the remaining Ephraimites and Judeans intermarried with settling Babylonians and a new cult emmerged with different sacred places, differet rituals, and a different name for God.
When the Jews returned from Babylonian exile, they found this new sect occupying much of the land. This was the cause of much hostility as both claimed to be the correct religion.
At any rate, Jews persecuted Samaritans rarely and only between 600BCE and 70 CE. Thereafter, Jews adn Samaritans made common cause against the Romans and Hellenistic colonizers. They were united int eh Bar Kokhba revolt of 135-136 and many more until the last one in 617CE.
Today, thanks to Byzantine Christian and Muslim subjugation, there are fewer than 10,000 Samaritans. They are not persecuted in Israel, but are persecuted by the Palestinians.

85 posted on 02/04/2003 5:13:09 PM PST by rmlew
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To: rmlew
Problem is, you don't have a problem blaming other ETHNIC groups for genocide, but when members of the JEWISH ETHNIC group committed genocide, such as the vast majority of the Communist party in the 20's....oh that's different, they were religious so they weren't ETHNIC Jews...how convinient of you. How about this, all those who killed Jews in Russia during Pogroms weren't Russians since Russians are Christian and murder is against the teachings of Christ. By your logic, this is correct and you'll have to accept it...so now I'll wait for you to work around that or simply to ignore that.
86 posted on 02/04/2003 5:18:19 PM PST by Stavka2 (Setting the record.)
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To: Stavka2
Problem is, you don't have a problem blaming other ETHNIC groups for genocide, but when members of the JEWISH ETHNIC group committed genocide, such as the vast majority of the Communist party in the 20's....oh that's different, they were religious so they weren't ETHNIC Jews...how convinient of you.

Soviet Communists killed off people in horrendous numbers. However, the defining factor of communism is not nationalism, much less a particular nationalism. Communism is universalist.

Naziism is a particularist nationalist socialism. Instead of class warfare, tehre was ethnic warfare. Being German or Non-German was the defining issue.
Thus the ethnic heritage, which the communist gave up, is irrelevent. On the other hand, the ethnic heritage, which the Nazi extolled is relevant.

I'm sorry taht you are blind to the differences between class, race, adn religion.

How about this, all those who killed Jews in Russia during Pogroms weren't Russians since Russians are Christian and murder is against the teachings of Christ.

That's silly. Christians have been killing Jews for Millenia, often under the direct authority of religious leaders. Try again.
The Slavophiles were Orthodox Christians.

87 posted on 02/04/2003 6:09:04 PM PST by rmlew
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To: rmlew
That's silly. Christians have been killing Jews for Millenia, often under the direct authority of religious leaders. Try again. The Slavophiles were Orthodox Christians.

You mean like the way Jews were killing Christians, when Christians were the minority? Maybe you are familiar with the history of St. Paul when he was Saul?

As for Communism, first off, early on, certain ethnic groups were primary targets, like Cossaks.

But I'd accept your arguement: Soviet Communists killed off people in horrendous numbers. However, the defining factor of communism is not nationalism, much less a particular nationalism. Communism is universalist.

if it wasn't a total reversal of your earlier claims that Jews were the primary or out of proportion targets...so which is it? Can't have it both ways.

As for the Nazies, they killed off quite a bit of their Prussian Aristocracy while they were at it too.

88 posted on 02/04/2003 7:11:31 PM PST by Stavka2 (Setting the record.)
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To: Stavka2; xzins; fortheDeclaration; Alamo-Girl; Commander8; RaceBannon
UR#88).........................BTTT

Circles of Socialism!

Iraq too!

:-(

89 posted on 02/04/2003 8:20:41 PM PST by maestro
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To: Cicero
Lenin's grandfather, Moishe Itskovich Blank, was a Jew. And don't forget about the commisars Lev Kamenev (Lenin's right hand man), Zinoviev, Trotsky, etc.
90 posted on 02/04/2003 8:47:29 PM PST by Edmund Burke
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To: Nachum
Solzenhitsen taking 'cheap shots'?

Right....

Most Russian Jews were just feeding old Uncle Joes alligator, hoping it ate them last. It did.

As far as any of the Gulags being 'cushy', well that's just insane. Some may have been worse than others, but none of them were 'cushy' by any stretch of the imagination.

Me thinks thou dost protest too much.

L

91 posted on 02/04/2003 8:58:07 PM PST by Lurker (Don't p*** down my back and tell me it's raining.)
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To: maestro
Thanks for the heads up!
92 posted on 02/04/2003 9:40:51 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Edmund Burke
So, his grandmother was a Chuvash Tatar.
Was the USSR a Bulgar Conspiracy?
93 posted on 02/05/2003 4:55:24 PM PST by rmlew
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To: Stavka2
You mean like the way Jews were killing Christians, when Christians were the minority? Maybe you are familiar with the history of St. Paul when he was Saul?

This was internescene warfare among Jews promoted by the Romans.
You had Saducces against Essenes against Pharasees and finally this splinter from Essenes that celebrated Joshua son of Joseph as either the Messiah or the son of God.

To be blunt, Christians were persecuted (but hardly alone in this) for 60 years. Compare that to 1700+ years of anti-Jewish policies under Christians.

As for Communism, first off, early on, certain ethnic groups were primary targets, like Cossaks.

Please include (and this is incomplete) the Ruthenians, Karelian Finns, Kalmyks, Krimchaks, Volga Germans, and Crimean Tatars (including the Jewish Karaylar).

But I'd accept your arguement: "Soviet Communists killed off people in horrendous numbers. However, the defining factor of communism is not nationalism, much less a particular nationalism. Communism is universalist."

The ideology was universalist. However, the communist leadership saw many minorities as enemies and persecuted them in excess to the general populations. Look at the deportations to Siberia of entire ethnic groups.

As for the Nazies, they killed off quite a bit of their Prussian Aristocracy while they were at it too.
The Prussian Aristocracy, being an artifact of the Second Reich, was a threat to them.
Most of the German officers involved in coup and assasination attempts were Junkers.

94 posted on 02/05/2003 5:09:44 PM PST by rmlew
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Comment #95 Removed by Moderator

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To: ilikesnow
What blows my mind is the way they keep changing their names to this day. Several on the counterpart Russian Security Council having done so, according to reliable sources.

The more things change ...
97 posted on 02/14/2003 9:27:02 AM PST by Askel5
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Comment #98 Removed by Moderator


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