[Norm640]

I grew up dirt poor, I am dirt poor; last year I made 9,000 dollars. And, I live in appalachia.

That doesn't prove a whole lot, but since you decided to play some class war, I'll just throw that in.

Look, I'm not arguing for trying to get everyone paying at the same rate as American workers. I will argue, forever, in fact, that workers get paid sh-- even in their own countries by these American companies, and countries like China, where most new investment is going, don't care a wit about fairness to the worker.

Anyway, we are losing our base and we are becoming a service economy, like it or not. Manufacturers rely on cheap labor, and the cheaper the better. By your logic, the only beneficiaries of this great "competition" which, you seem to think, is very fair, are the folks that own the companies. For those that work for, not own, companies, they get screwed. Factor in offseas wage competition, and you have what we're happening now. "Competition" has zero to do with it, unless you happen to own the means of production.

I'm sorry, but that's a terribly elitist position to take. And, countries have sued the US in the trade courts for far more ridiculous things than wages. I'm not asking for equal wages, I'm merely asking for standards similar to what workers here have in the US. Sorry to hurt your precious "competition" but that competition doesn't mean a hill of beans to someone without a job in Appalachia.

Or Arkansas.

We can deny the reality of the situation by blustering about saying "the US is the most powerful country in the world," etc., this "rah-rah" crap. The facts don't play out that way. Sure, CEOs benefit, but Americans get shafted. Paul Roberts was pretty clear about that.

And he's right.

[Fledermaus]

. I will argue, forever, in fact, that workers get paid sh-- even in their own countries by these American companies, and countries like China, where most new investment is going, don't care a wit about fairness to the worker.

You can argue it all you want but that doesn't make it fact. I suggest you use your computer to look up the "average" income in the third world and see what American companies are paying. When the average worker makes $20 a month, a job paying two dollars a day is rich by those standards. You can't compare wages earned to U.S. standards. What China pays it's workers in it's state owned businesses is none of my concern. Mexicans aren't coming to the U.S. to just to earn higher wages, they are coming just to get a job! The Mexican economy is so state-controlled and corrupt that they can't create enough work for their population even while they sit on as much oil as Canada and could make everyone rich if they worked for a freely run, competitive oil company. Instead, it's state run and it's weak profits are used to run the corrupt government and is failing dramatically.

Someone sitting on the ground eating worms in Ethiopia would love a job paying $1 a day!

And obvioulsy, even at a minimum wage level $9K a year, you obviously still have electricity and a computer internet provider. So what's your point?

And as to "we are losing our base", you need to go to the library and read the history of the U.S. and you'll find we lost "our base" in the last 19th century when we went from an agricultural base to a manufacturing base. Now we are shifting from manufacturing to service and information.

What do you want to do? Guarantee a $20/hour job to make trinkets for Happy Meals? Then I hope you are prepared to pay $5 for a Big Mac. Why should a U.S. manufacturer be forced to pay high wages and benefits to people for jobs that monkeys can be trained to do. I worked at Whirlpool for 2 summers and it doesn't take much intelligence to put a plug into a hole and a piece of insulation behind a grommet. Sure I was happy to get $7 an hour when minimum wage was $2.85. I would have been happy to get the $2.85 also.

You want standards in other countries similar to the U.S. because you want to raise their standard beyond their conditions only as a straight-line comparison to justify the wages you want here. So I guess the U.S. companies should be forced to buy denatl insurance for employees in Indonesia that probably has 3 dentists in the entire country.

And if you aren't making enough money in appalachia...MOVE! My parents moved us plenty of times. Since college, I moved to where ever I thought the jobs were better. And I'm in the "service" industry. My wife works for a large payroll processing company she helped start from scratch...that's a service and they now employee 250 very high paid workers with benefits.

Fine argument, just doesn't hold water.