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To: WhiskeyPapa
I'd be careful quoting him.

I know you would, because his report contradicts your modern revisionist version of "history". Let's see what that Union officer had to say about what he witnessed as Jackson's Army passed through Fredericksburg:

"Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms , not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc. They were supplied in many instances, with knapsacks, haversacks, canteens, etc., and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army. They were seen riding on horses and mules, driving wagons, riding on caissons, in ambulances, with the staff of Generals, and promiscuously mixed up with all the rebel horde. The fact was patent, and rather interesting when considered in connection with the horror rebels express at the suggestion of black soldiers being employed for the national defense."

Yeah, I see why you don't want him quoted on the subject. Notice how he points out that most were armed, and they were "an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army." Notice also how he points out how "patent, and rather interesting" that fact was considering the Confederate's strong objection to the North using black troops (Southern runaway slaves). Why was it "patent, and rather interesting"? Because that objection seemed illogical to him since the Southern Confederate Army was very obviously using black troops itself. Most were no doubt slaves, but they were still black Confederates, just as the "free men of color" were. They were part of the Army, with uniforms and arms. True, they were not treated as equals, but blacks up North weren't either. In the places up north that would allow blacks, that is. Black Confederates were a reality, and participated in America's history. Just ask Frederick Douglass:

"There are at the present moment many colored men in the Confederate army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops, and do all that soldiers may to destroy the Federal Government and build up that of the traitors and rebels. There were such soldiers at Manassas, and they are probably there still...Rising above vulgar prejudice, the slaveholding rebel accepts the aid of the black man as readily as that of any other." - Frederick Douglass in 1861.

Even Horace Greeley, yet another staunch Union man, mentioned the fact that black Confederates were in the Southern Confederate Army:

"For more than two years, Negroes have been extensively employed in belligerent operations by the Confederacy. They have been embodied and drilled as rebel soldiers and had paraded with white troops at a time when this would not have been tolerated in the armies of the Union." - Horace Greeley

54 posted on 01/21/2003 3:40:20 PM PST by thatdewd
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To: thatdewd
"Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms , not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc. They were supplied in many instances, with knapsacks, haversacks, canteens, etc., and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army. They were seen riding on horses and mules, driving wagons, riding on caissons, in ambulances, with the staff of Generals, and promiscuously mixed up with all the rebel horde. The fact was patent, and rather interesting when considered in connection with the horror rebels express at the suggestion of black soldiers being employed for the national defense."

Yeah, I see why you don't want him quoted on the subject. Notice how he points out that most were armed, and they were "an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."

Who are never seen again, make no impact on the battle of Antietam fought within a week, and who no one else says a word about.

There is no credible evidence of more than a handful of black rebel soldiers.

Walt

55 posted on 01/22/2003 5:42:14 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa (To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men)
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To: thatdewd
"There are at the present moment many colored men in the Confederate army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops, and do all that soldiers may to destroy the Federal Government and build up that of the traitors and rebels. There were such soldiers at Manassas, and they are probably there still...Rising above vulgar prejudice, the slaveholding rebel accepts the aid of the black man as readily as that of any other." - Frederick Douglass in 1861.

The rebels used many slaves as laborers, teamsters, even musicians. There is no credible proof that more than a handful served as soldiers. I have quotes too:

"Mr. Wickham said that our brave soldiers, who have fought so long and nobly, would not stand to be thus placed side by side with negro soldiers. He was opposed to such a measure. The day that such a bill passed Congress sounds the death knell of this Confederacy. The very moment an order goes forth from the War Department authorizing the arming and organizing of negro soldiers there was an eternal end to this struggle."

Gen. Howell Cobb, an unbeliever in this expedient, wrote from Macon, Ga., January 8, 1865: "I think that the proposition is the most pernicious idea that has been suggested since the war began. You cannot make soldiers of slaves or slaves of soldiers. The moment you resort to this your white soldiers are lost to you, and one reason why this proposition is received with favor by some portions of the army is because they hope that when the negro comes in they can retire. You cannot keep white and black troops together, and you cannot trust negroes alone. They won't make soldiers, as they are wanting in every qualification necessary to make one."

A quick synopsis from a website:

"The Confederate Army used many Negro servants and laborers, but did not employ Negro combat troops. A regiment was organized in New Orleans but not accepted into service. In 1863, a proposal to arm slaves was briefly considered. In January 1864, a movement by Pat Cleburne to use slaves as soldiers, giving them freedom for good service, was suppressed by Davis when he learned of it. In November 1864, Davis considered the limited use of negro troops, and R.E. Lee agreed that the idea had merit. In March 1865, the Confederate congress passed a law authorizing that up to 300,000 slaves be called for military service, but there was no mention of their being freed in connection with this duty. The next month a few companies were organized, but the surrender came before any of them were used."

http://www.genealogyforum.rootsweb.com/gfaol/resource/Military/CWNegroTroops.htm

That is the extent of it. Douglass was wrong, or he was exaggerating.

Walt

56 posted on 01/22/2003 5:49:47 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa (To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men)
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To: thatdewd
"For more than two years, Negroes have been extensively employed in belligerent operations by the Confederacy. They have been embodied and drilled as rebel soldiers and had paraded with white troops at a time when this would not have been tolerated in the armies of the Union." - Horace Greeley

Greeley it was who said something like: "A republic pinned together with bayonets has no attraction to me."

Within a few months, he was leading the "On to Richmond" charge. He was seldom right on anything, and he is clearly misinformed here. Black troops -never- paraded with white troops, on either side.

How about this letter:

"Headquarters Department Trans-Mississippi,Shreveport, La, June 13, 1863

Maj. Gen. R. Taylor Commanding District of Louisiana:

GENERAL:

In answer to the communication of Brigadier-General Hebert, ofthe 6th instant, asking what disposition should be made of negro slaves taken in arms, I am directed by Lieutenant-General Smith to say no quarter should be shown them. If taken prisoners, however, they should be turned over to the executive authorities of the States in which they may be captured, in obedience to the proclamation of the President of the Confederate States, sections 3 and 4, published to the Army in General Orders, No. 111, Adjutant and Inspector General's Office, series of 1862. Should negroes thus taken be executed by the military authorities capturing them it would certainly provoke retaliation. By turning them over to the civil authorities to be tried by the laws of the state, no exception can be taken.I am, general, very respectfully, your obedient servant,

S. S. Anderson"

Why would the rebels take homicidal exception in the federals doing something they were themselves doing?"

There is no credible evidence of more than a handful of black rebel soldiers.

Walt

57 posted on 01/22/2003 5:55:39 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa (To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men)
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To: thatdewd
I'd be careful quoting him.

I know you would, because his report contradicts your modern revisionist version of "history".

Well, Dr. Steiner thought McClellan a great genius, and the battle of Antietam a great Union victory. That is in the same phamplet that contains the segmemt about the 3,000 negroes.

But let's quote some more of that phamplet:

"About. 5 o'clock, A.M., it was ascertained thatJackson's force— the advance guard of the Southern army—was encamped on Moffat's farm, near Buckeystown, and that this force would enter Frederick after daylight; for what purpose no one knew. Having possession of this amount of information, I retired about two o'clock, being willing to wait: the sequel, whatever it might be.

...The crowded condition of the stores enabled some of the chivalry to take what. they wanted, (confiscate is the technical expression,) without going through the formality of even handing over confederate rags in exchange. But guards were placed at the stores wherever requested, and only a few men allowed to enter at a time. Even this arrangement proved inadequate, and the stores were soon necessarily closed.

The most intense hatred seems to have been encouraged and fostered in the men's hearts towards Union people, or Yankees as they style them; and this word Yankee is employed with any and every manner of emphasis possible to indicate contempt and bitterness. The men have been made to believe that "to kill a Yankee" is to do a duty imperatively imposed on them.

The following incident will illustrate this: A gentleman was called aside, while talking with some ladies, by an officer who wished information as to shoes. He said he was in want of shoes for his men, that he had United States money if the dealers were so foolish as to prefer it, or he would procure them gold; but if they wouldn't sell, he was satisfied to wait until they reached Baltimore, where he had no doubt but that shoes in quantity could be procured.

No reply was made. Changing the subject, he inquired how the men were behaving. The answer was very well; there was no complaint, although some few had been seen intoxicated on the street. "Who gave them the liquor," said the officer. "Townsmen who sympathize with you and desire to show their love for you." "The only way to do that," said the officer, "is to kill a Yankee: kill a Yankee, sir, if you want to please a Southerner." This was uttered with all imaginable expression of vindictiveness and venom.

Our houses were besieged by hungry soldiers and officers. They ate everything offered them with a greediness that fully sustained the truth of their statement, that their entire subsistence lately had been green corn, uncooked and eaten directly from the stalk. Union families freely gave such food as they had.

...But few of our secession citizens aided them. They seemed ashamed of their Southern brethren. The Union people stood out for their principles, and took care to remind them that they were getting their food from those they had come to destroy.

A gentleman relates the following : "In the evening, after having had one of their officers to tea—one whom I had known in former days—two officers came to the door and begged that something might be given them for which they wished to pay. On giving them the last biscuits in the house, one of them offered pay. The reply was, 'No sir; whenever you meet a Federal soldier wanting food, recollect that a Union man in Frederick gave you the last morsel of food in his house when you were famishing.' The officer's face flushed up, and he replied, 'You are right, sir, I am very, very much obliged to you.' The coals of fire had been heaped on his head."

Outrages were committed on the National flag whenever one fell into the hands of the soldiers. These simply strengthened the Union feeling, and made the men and women of Frederick more attached than ever to the National cause for which their fathers had fought and died. Stauncher, stouter, stronger did Unionists in Frederick grow with each passing hour. We were conquered, not enslaved—humiliated greatly with the thought that rebel feet were pressing on our soil, but not disposed to bow the knee to Baal.

The experience of one week with the Rebel Army satisfies me that the men are in a high state of discipline and have learned implicit obedience. When separated from their officers they do not show the same self-reliance that our men possess,—do not seem able to discuss with intelligent ease the political subjects which claim every man's attention at this time. All of them show a lack of energy and spirit, a want of thrift and cleanliness, which are altogether paradoxical to our men. A constant fear of their officers is associated with their prompt obedience of orders. Many, while they expressed their contempt for "the Yankees," would lament the war and express a desire to throw down their arms and return to their homes, if they could only do this without molestation. Jackson's name was always mentioned with a species of veneration, and his orders were obeyed with a slavish obedience unsurpassed by that of Russian serfs.

The men generally looked sturdy when in ranks, yet a cachectic expression of countenance prevailed, which could not be accounted for entirely by the unwashed faces that were, from necessity or choice, the rule. Those who have fallen into our hands show worn-out constitutions, disordered digestions and a total lack of vital stamina. They do not bear pain with any fortitude, and their constitutions seem to have very little power of resistance to disease. The rate of mortality in the rebel sick and wounded is double or treble that found in the Hospitals containing our men.

In point of professional ability, their medical officers vary very much. Some few are men of superior talent, but many are without either professional knowledge or social culture. Constant association with hardship and suffering may have made them callous to the appeals of their patients, but this excuse will hardly justify the neglect which some of them show towards the sick. As to medical supplies they rely largely upon captures, upon confiscating whatever they meet with on their marches, and upon paying for medicines with the worthless rags they call Confederate notes.

With such uncertain sources for their supplies, the imperfections of their medical and surgical treatment cannot, be severely censured.

Sunday, September 14th.

—Major-General Banks' corps d'armee, commanded by Brigadier-General A. S. Williams passed through town this morning on its way to the front. The men were in the best possible spirits, all eager for the fray. They are fighting now for and among people who appreciate their labors, and who welcome them as brothers. Brigadier-General Gordon said that "the reception of the troops by the citizens of this place was equal to a victory in its effects upon the men of his command." The veteran troops were all in vigorous health, and the new levies made up of strong, athletic men, whose intelligent faces beamed with strong desire to press rapidly upon the retreating foe. We had never greater reason to be proud of our army. During the afternoon of the day, the memorable engagement at the South Mountain Pass took place, in which our new levies vied with the veterans in pressing the Confederates up the side of the mountain, and then over into the valley beyond. Our military commanders will bear testimony, in proper form, to the heroic courage shown by our army in this well-fought action. The rebels had tried to make a stand at several points on the road prior to this engagement, but were gallantly driven forwards by our troops.

On Wednesday the great battle of Antietam was fought, with such a display of strategy and power on the part of our General, and of heroism and daring from our men, that the enemy was glad to resign all hopes of entering Pennsylvania, and to withdraw his forces across the Potomac. A great victory had been gained; the enemy had been driven from loyal soil, and McClellan had shown himself worthy of the love, (amounting almost to adoration,) which his troops expressed on all sides."

We can give Dr. Steiner about as much credibility on black rebel soldiers as we can on his opinion of McClellan's military skills.

Walt

59 posted on 01/22/2003 6:31:36 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa (To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men)
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