What Gangs of New York Misses

City Journal ^ | January 14, 2003 | William J. Stern

[visualops]

I enjoyed that read, thanks.
I'll wait for cable, mostly because my movie $$ are reserved for the really great stuff like LOTR.
The teasers didn't much make me want to see this, except for DD-L. At the very least I expect his performance to be intense, as always lol.
As dramatic and provocative as the gang wars may have been, I do think are far more interesting movie would indeed have been the story of the Irish (and other) immigrants who made great strides in a relatively short period of time. Really a lesson to be learned there, and reminded of as often as necessary.

[Bonaparte]

"None of this was depicted."

Why would Scorsese want to depict 17th and 18th century trends?

[Castlebar]

And honestly, Protestants didn't want Catholics in New York. Are you denying that? Al Smith was defeated for president largely due to his Catholicism. I ask once again, is the hard truth worse than the soft comfort of myth?

I think you're the one propagating a myth. Smith swept the states of the Old Confederacy, where Catholics were about as plentiful as hen's teeth. Hoover kicked Smith's crooked butt in the rest of the nation (including the heavily catholic Great Lakes states and Northeast.

[Bonaparte]

Smith showed his true colors after he was "cheated" out of the 1932 nomination by FDR. He endorsed Roosevelt's Republican opponents in 1936 and 1940. Principle and party came a poor last to the fishmonger's personal ambitions.

NB. Of course, the Klan intensely disliked Smith, but by the 20s, they were strongest in the midwest, not the South. And there were a few southern states that Smith lost in 1928, but in general, your observation is right.

[aculeus]

I know it covers the WBTS draft riots, does Martin gloss over the massive lynchings of black freedmen and escaped slaves by NYers?

I posted this not as a movie review (and cut a couple of paragraphs that referred to it) but because of Stern's comments on John Hughes. His other column, linked in #6, gives more details about this man, an under-appreciated hero.

[happygrl]

Saw the movie.

It was a confused mess with no point of view except anarchic violence.

As the writer makes clear: some things never change. Don't look to the fourth estate (the press) for wisdom, nor to the fifth estate (or fifth column) i.e. the entertainment industry.

But where are those men of God and the streets like John Hughes or William Booth ?

[Wallace T.]

Most of the movie is set in the 1861-63 period, so 17th and 18th Century trends are not relevant. However, "Gangs of New York" did not show the considerable body of pro-Southern sentiment among Irish immigrants in the North. It did exist in part because of the Cavalier-Catholic alliance in support of the Stuart dynasty. Historians like David Hackett Fischer and social commentators like Kevin Phillips have written on the roots of American culture and social conflict even in our time in the controversies of the British Isles in the 17th and 18th Centuries.

[wardaddy]

Thanks for answering my question in post 12 even though not directed at you. I had assumed the original poster had seen the movie.

I like Scorsese's texture and non-stop momentum (usually) but expected he'd give it a PC washover and a lefty slant.

Too bad....worse still is that average ignorant Joe and Jane America will view it as historically sound.

I did hear that Lewis's performance is monumental.

DiCaprio should stick with Gilbert Grape type roles...they are better suited to his "gravitas". Diaz?...yep..miscast I'm sure.

BTW....I saw Mel Gibson on O'Reilly tonight...seems Hollywood and the print media are incensed over his positive portrayal of Christ in his upcoming flick with Jim Caviziel as Jesus...Caviziel is a devout Christian too. If those folks hate it then it must be good....I better brush up on my aramaic and latin....I hope it's subtitled.

Juxtapose that with Scorsese's abominational Jesus film in the 80s....yuck..hurl.

[wardaddy]

Thanks for answering my question in post 12 even though not directed at you. I had assumed the original poster had seen the movie.

I like Scorsese's texture and non-stop momentum (usually) but expected he'd give it a PC washover and a lefty slant.

Too bad....worse still is that average ignorant Joe and Jane America will view it as historically sound.

I did hear that Lewis's performance is monumental.

DiCaprio should stick with Gilbert Grap type roles...they are better suited to his "gravitas". Diaz?...yep..miscast I'm sure.

BTW....I saw Mel Gibson on O'Reilly tonight...seems Hollywood and the print media are incensed over his positive portrayal of Christ in his upcoming flick with Jim Caviziel as Jesus...Caviziel is a devout Christian too. If those folks hate it then it must be good....I better brush up on my aramaic and latin....I hope it's subtitled.

Juxtapose that with Scorsese's abominational Jesus film in the 80s....yuck..hurl.

[nopardons]

The N.Y. Post flamed this latest Scorsese movie. It's historically inacurate, most of the acting stinks, and doesn't even use much of the book's material. Pure Hollywood drivel; so says the N.Y.P. ! Read the book; I did ... long ago.

BTW, you have mail. :-)

[Peter Libra]

Re your graphic reproduction of the Jacob Riis photograph. Wow, this will certainly speed me on my way across to Michigan and my donation to FR. Great!

[wardaddy]

Thanks for the mail...I just got it. I have had trouble logging on tonight....I loathe my cheap 1.2 gig AMD processor....it's shakey and prone to freeze up....and my cable company server seems to let a lot more flotsam up the pipe than my DSL does at work. I need my techie to come over and bail me out.

I sort of figured Scorsese would make this into a lefty class warfare thing....is that close?

I did hear Lewis was quite good in his role?

Wasn't the old 5 points area around the Bowery and the old old Police Station?....I should have read up and studied it more when I lived there.

Warm Regards.

[nopardons]

The posted colored Riis picture is of one of the places in the Five Points, at a somewhat later period of time and that's one of the gangs ( Black & Tan ? )which followed those mentioned in the movie. Yes, it is near the Bowery. Even as a tiny child, I knew a little about that area. Ever hear the old song : " THE BOWERY " ? It's about the gangs, etc. and what went on their. I've read a great deal about this area ; it's fascinating stuff. :-)

Sorry to hear about your server. :-(

I don't know WHY Scorses fiddled so with the facts. It didn't make this movie " better ". As to the cast...there aren't any good American actors/actresses anymore. BTW, DD-L REALLY got his nose broken, in one of the filmed fight scenes and went right on fighting. SOME OF THE GORE IS REAL AND NOT MAX FACTOR PANCROMATIC BLOOD #5.

There's a new book out " THE FIVE POINTS ", which I am going to get and read ASAP. :-)

[nutmeg]

Gangs of New York ping.

This article appears in the current issue of City Journal, published by The Manhattan Institute.

[wardaddy]

I do need to read up. Right now I'm reading Kitchen Confidential (vulgar but good), Bias (McGowan's book is much better), and Fortunes, Fiddles, and Fried Chicken (a post-bellum history of Nashville Gentry....pretty entertaining since I know a fair number of the descendents).

[Clemenza]

“Dagger” John Hughes

In addition to defending poor Catholics, the future Archbishop Hughes was also founder of Clemenza's alma mater in the then rural Bronx. There is a nice statue of him in front of the old Rose Hill Estate (now the administration building). Although the neighborhood around it has changes, the university remains a "green" campus just as it was when Dagger John founded it (the dorm I lived in was built shortly before the Civil War).

In the university's early years, a frequent visitor to John Hughes and the other Jesuits was a writer who lived in a small cottage nearby, one Edgar Allen Poe.

[Clemenza]

Wasn't the old 5 points area around the Bowery and the old old Police Station?....I should have read up and studied it more when I lived there.

OK. The Five Points was cleared for an early version of "urban renewal" in the 1880s. The northern boundary of the neighborhood was where Columbus Park is now, at the end of Mulberry Street between Little Italy and Chinatown. The courthouse marks the southern boundary of what was once the neighborhood. The Bowery is a little to the East of where the five points once were.

[Clemenza]

For a good history of "street" life in New York from the 1790s to the 1910s, check out Luc Sante's outstanding book Low Life when you get the chance.

[nopardons]

I'm trying to get out of London/England in the 18th century. That's what I've been reading lately and I'm sick of it ! If there was ever a time period, that I would NEVER want to live through, this one is VERY high on my list. A few of the books I've been reading are : " A CONSPIRACY OF PAPER "," CARABOO "," LONDON HANGED ", " THIEVES' OPERA ", and just finished " JOHNSON'S LONDON ". They're all fascinating, full of hard , cold facts ( though the first two are fiction, based on historical facts ), and well worth the read. Anyone, who thinks that 18th century America ( or any other place at that time period ) was a good time to live, doesn't know much, if anything at all, about what life was REALLY ,?B> like back then.

What's " KITCHEN CONFIDENTIAL " about ?

[nopardons]

Read that when it was first published. That's a fantastic book and a great read. :-)