Rape, California-style

TownHall.com ^ | 1/13/03 | Kathleen Parker

[wimpycat]

You, as a woman, implied a threat to gouge out eyes in your last post - I'd say you're possibly a bitter physically violent woman. No point in discussing anything rational with you; you're relating on an emotional level and degrading the seriousness of rape.

I never implied anything of the sort. Do you feel threatened or intimidated? I merely stated to all men, that if you're having sex with a woman and she wants to stop, to stop before she uses physical force against you.

You're the one implying physical violence; actually, you more than implied it, that if a woman goes into a bedroom with a man, she's not allowed to change her mind at any time, and that she deserves whatever happens to her in there. That's violent.

[disclaimer]

disclaimer, only the craven would whimper about the justifiable physical assault on any "man" who would insist on finishing after being told to stop.

You are making me sick.

Palp - that's not my argument at all. Tune in. The discussion here is about chargeability of 'rape' after consent. Not whimpering about some eyeball grabbing episode.

[disclaimer]

Where is your entitlement to finish?

There is no 'entitlement to finish', but it isn't rape.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

If there is no entitlement to finish, how can it not be rape if it continues after the point she says "stop"?

Are men so not in control of themselves that they keep going nd going, like the remaining stump of the male praying mantis after the woman bites his head off and eats it?

[wimpycat]

I notice how you skip over the part about responsibly.

No, actually you do. You refuse to acknowledge that a man must stop when the woman tells him to. That's the man's responsibility. Why do you harp on the woman's responsibility while you ignore the man's?

YOU WROTE: disclaimer: A man continuing sex after a woman consented then changed her mind doesn't constitute rape, maybe bad etiquette on the man's side, but not rape.

I WROTE: I'm not talking about this little girl in the article, but grownup men and women.

YOU WROTE: Applies to both.

Who's being violent here? You are, by stating a man continuing sex after the woman tells him to stop is guilty ONLY of bad etiquette. I gave you the opportunity to clarify your earlier proclamation in my post #112, but you refused.

[Morrigan]

This case seems to fall within a gray area. Could it be called rape? Maybe. Maybe not. I personally would not have found this boy guilty of rape. The girl, upon changing her mind, should have been very clear that she did not want to continue. Something to the effect of NO--GET OFF ME NOW! would have been better than, "I think I should be going." So she does share some of the blame.

But so does he. When she said she should be going home, he should have stopped right then and asked her what was wrong, and if she wanted to stop. But he didn't. I think this was more communication breakdown than anything else.

I also think that highly publicized, questionable cases like this ruin things for real rape victims. Make no mistake, rape is a crime, and not a misunderstanding (like this case appears to be). A woman never "asks" to be raped, and wearing a short skirt, going into a man's bedroom, or even engaging in foreplay with him does not mean she "deserves it." No one deserves to be raped. It is like saying if someone drives a nice car, they deserve to be carjacked. Its like saying that John Lennon deserved to be murdered because he was rich, famous, and talented. Like saying, "He asked for it."

It seems as if some of the people on this forum may think that women "deserve it", as if anyone is deserving of a terrible crime being perpetrated upon them. No one "deserves" or "asks" to be raped, just like no one "deserves" or "asks" to be shot, robbed, or carjacked.

[disclaimer]

I never implied anything of the sort. Do you feel threatened or intimidated?

By what?

I merely stated to all men, that if you're having sex with a woman and she wants to stop, to stop before she uses physical force against you.

This statement of yours has nothing to do with the misuse of the chart of rape, as in the article. Who cares if you take it upon yourself to proclaim anything.

You're the one implying physical violence; actually, you more than implied it, that if a woman goes into a bedroom with a man, she's not allowed to change her mind at any time, and that she deserves whatever happens to her in there. That's violent.

It could be an assault charge if there's harm done, but it's not rape. Simple as that.

[wardaddy]

Man...ya'll are all sure stirred up over this one.

Well i have 2 daughters ages 13 and 14. I would hope they would not get naked with any man right now in a bedroom but especially not two or more men.

However....it has always been my belief and practice that unless a woman is literally aching for sex with me that I'm not interested and that if she says no...even with her panties at her ankles then we would not have had sex. I'm sure like more than a few here, I've slept naked with a woman and not had intercourse (hoping naturally that she would then asume I was a gent and therefore suitable in the near future or maybe I already had my heart in it)

In today's world, there seems to be varying degrees of rape. From maybe ...I'm not a lawyer....lower degree sexual asault or battery to full blown (jump out from behind the bushes) brutal stranger rape. There is a fair amount of room in between those two. This case would appear from only what I've gleaned to be nearer the lower end. That's not to say I don't think the boys should not be punished nor feel awful for the girl's naive or poor decision making.

I saw some behavior similar to this in my youth. Drunk girl runs train sort of thing. I was not raised to treat women like that and never ever participated. Some of the girls were more than willing....I think it was a peverse empowerment or a daddy thing for "love". Other girls had simply had too much to drink or taken some Quaaludes and left inhibition at the door.....the boys too as well. No doubt the latter type girls had plenty of guilt to deal with later.

I can relate to this fear of my daughters being in this situation involuntarily but I must confess that this girl maybe sort of walked into it and the boys took advantage. I don't have the right answer. I can only say that it was obviously wrong and merits a proportionate punishment. I think that there can indeed be cases where a rape can occur after intercourse has been initiated due to many factors..brutality....a hidden second partner etc..

It's all quite alien to me other than my dark memories and nowadays constantly warning my girls about groups of intoxicated boys and where that can lead. In my day I was a longhaired rebel and the gangbangs were more the province of the drunk jocks. I don't know about today. Men I've respected in my life have always told me about sex and women that sex is more about her than you. I always lived that. I can't imagine forcing or whining myself into a girl's britches. Actual intercourse is so far down the timeline in "fun time" for me that the chance of a "no" has always been an impossibility.

Now as a middle aged fellow with 2 in diapers, and very happily married to a woman far better and more attractive than I merit....I can only offer very very distant observations on what goes on in these kids minds now in our culture. It's all very very screwed up. I feel sorry for this girl. I think she got in over her head pretty fast. The boys obviously did not have the level of respect for women I was raised with.

Sorry for the longwind.

[wimpycat]

Don't apologize at all. You were obviously raised right.

[wardaddy]

Well said.....young men should heed such advice particularly in our depraved culture where slutty(as opposed to sexy) apparel is fashion and boorishness and thuggishness is lauded. The parameters for proper behavior between boys and girls were much clearer even in my own drug addled youth 30 years ago.

Most of us back then no matter how stoned we were still knew the limits and the word respect was not merely a salutation.

My dad would have beaten my ass clear into the nearest emergency room if I had ever done anything that even had a whiff of this sort of thing.

[disclaimer]

disclaimer: I notice how you skip over the part about responsibly.

wimpycat: No, actually you do. You refuse to acknowledge that a man must stop when the woman tells him to. That's the man's responsibility. Why do you harp on the woman's responsibility while you ignore the man's?

disclaimer: The woman, in the article, is pressing a rape charge which is a serious charge. The woman shouldn't putting herself in the place where it's only her word agaist his only.

The man must stop if the woman says so, but if he continues, its not rape since consent was given. It could be assult, but that's assuming some physical evidence is available to prove so or at least make a credible charge. It's the woman's responsibility to avoid this sort of situation since it is only her word agaist his - she should not be having sex with someone she doesn't know or haven't deomstrated respect for her - and married her. Its draconian and tyrannical to have such a 'rape' law that allows a woman to claim such a charge, prosocute, and convict a man without withing collaberating evidence or a witness of any kind. Such a law is ripe for abuse and is unjust.

wimpycat: YOU WROTE: disclaimer: A man continuing sex after a woman consented then changed her mind doesn't constitute rape, maybe bad etiquette on the man's side, but not rape.

I WROTE: I'm not talking about this little girl in the article, but grownup men and women.

YOU WROTE: Applies to both.

Who's being violent here? You are, by stating a man continuing sex after the woman tells him to stop is guilty ONLY of bad etiquette. I gave you the opportunity to clarify your earlier proclamation in my post #112, but you refused.

disclaimer: Your post #112 was not addressed to me but the following: Jason_b; Chancellor Palpatine; FreeTally

[disclaimer]

If there is no entitlement to finish, how can it not be rape if it continues after the point she says "stop"?

Because consent was already given. It that a tough concept for you?

Are men so not in control of themselves that they keep going nd going, like the remaining stump of the male praying mantis after the woman bites his head off and eats it?

You should seek therapy.

[wimpycat]

Oh, hadn't you noticed? This interchange between you and me is OVER. I didn't even read beyond the first couple of lines of your post, so I don't know at this point what you said.

While I can't stop you, of course, any further address you make to me on this thread will be uninvited and without my consent.

[DoughtyOne]

Thank you. This was rape. The original article above did not provide any of these details. That's why my comments sounded out of place, when this appeared. I certainly didn't seek to defend this type of activity. The writer made a hugh mistake portraying the review of the guilty plea as she did. What's wrong with this writer that she would overlook so much, to damn the raped woman in this case, and lament the treatment of them men. I sure don't understand where she was coming from.

[disclaimer]

Oh, hadn't you noticed? This interchange between you and me is OVER.

No, I didn't notice.

I didn't even read beyond the first couple of lines of your post, so I don't know at this point what you said.

I doubt that you read much of anything that challenges your emotional worldview. That's a good way to remain ignorant.

While I can't stop you, of course, any further address you make to me on this thread will be uninvited and without my consent.

How did it come to be that I have to be invited or have your consent to reply in a public forum? I'm sure that's a form of written rape in your world. You should seek therapy as well.

[disclaimer]

Do you have any sons?

[Born in a Rage]

It could be an assault charge if there's harm done, but it's not rape. Simple as that.

Rape is an assault. A particular kind of assault - the type of assault this girl was the victim of. Of course there is "harm done" when a woman is forced to have sexual relations or to be forced to continue to have sexual relations, that is obvious. Anyone who commits this violation of a persons body is a rapist. Simple as that.

[DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet]

Girls should never be alone with guys that they don't intend to screw. Ever.

Hmmmm...let's try this on for size.

Does the same rule apply to boys, in a case of homosexual rape? Boys should never be alone with guys they don't intend to "screw"? "Ever"? Think about what you're saying. I hate this idea that females are responsible for what bad things happen just because they happen to be taking up the wrong space.

[wimpycat]

That tag line of yours still tickles me!

ROFL!

[wimpycat]

If you don't have a bruised or torn vagina or a black eye to "prove" the "harm", you're sh** out of luck, didn't you know that?