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"Sex outside of marriage was wrong. Now that we can easily prevent pregnancy, sex outside of marriage doesn't seem to be working very well for males or females."

So true. However, unlike many pushing celibacy, we both know that acknowleging this fact does not hinder the search for an answer to this problem.

The demand of celibacy is creating many problems. Failure to acknowlege such problems just makes the cure more difficult.

It is funny, we act as if concupiscence is some new thing particular to us vain human beings in 2003........how silly, the Church has gone through this in the past, and there is a very sound reason for celibacy. Unfortunately, many on this board are unable to transcend their 'glands', and use their intellect.

The demand of celibacy is creating many problems.

The demands of marriage create many problems, too.

Celibacy is great for those who are called to it. Not everyone is, as Jesus and Paul both said. Far fewer are called to celibacy than are trying to live it in the priesthood.

I knew men who literally drifted into the priesthood because they didn't have the guts to disappoint their parents.

No vow is going to keep a man in the priesthood who is truly miserable there, nor should it.

Protestant ministers who are married get divorced, have affairs, have kids who get in trouble with drugs, just like all other married people.

So, nothing is perfect.

I'm for ordaining married men because celibacy is not a requirement for Holy Orders. The married Protestant ministers who have converted and been ordained have worked out very well in our diocese. In fact, the largest parish, with 10,000 members, is pastored by a married ex-Anglican with three daughters. '

The demand of celibacy is creating many problems. Failure to acknowlege such problems just makes the cure more difficult.

The only cure is in getting the church to abolish the discipline.

At one time, my own personal preference was that priests be celibate. Because it causes so many to stumble, it would be better to change it. Ideally, I would still prefer priests to be celibate, but I now think that is unrealistic, at least in our time.

In the early church, I think it probably worked generally because people were more charged up then, more focussed, the world had little to offer anyway other than misery, and people didn't live very long.

Sexual abstinence for women comes a bit more naturally, not because they don't have similar desires and urges, but because the societal penalty for misbehavior was severe. It isn't quite that way today, but how many women do you know who have four different kids by four different fathers ending up in a good marriage? I don't know any offhand.