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To: Polycarp
With twins, the entire early cell structure splits completely in half, and it is a natural process. However, the twinning process does call into question whether clones might have a soul (mitigating in favor of this view.)

But why would both the twins have souls in the first place? Or does each twin get 1/2 a soul, since they split off from the original (soul-equipped) fertilized egg? Not to mention triplets, quads, quints, sexts, septs... You yourself said that the soulless clone would probably get a soul implanted by (apparently) Satan. Why don't you think this happens with identical twins, etc.?

(Come to think of it, my niece Julie does give my sister a lot more trouble than does her twin, Diana... :-)

16 posted on 01/03/2003 11:07:23 PM PST by jennyp
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To: jennyp
Actually, I was equivocating:

clones might have a soul (mitigating in favor of this view.)

In other words I said that since twins obviously have souls, clones might also.

probably get a soul implanted by (apparently) Satan

Ah...definitely not what I said. Nature abhors a vacuum. There is a place in the human structure for a spiritual soul alongside its physical parts.

If this place is not filled by God with a soul, which is a big IF then that human structure might be possessed by a demonic spirit, as the human structure will not function without some animating spirit (or "soul.")

20 posted on 01/03/2003 11:16:14 PM PST by Polycarp
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To: jennyp
3 separate counterexamples/domains for illustration of different issues.

1) Human twins. Good area of study and a fair amount of theological discussion, observation and consideration has been made onthis topic over a thousand years. Probably some good insight available in this domain.

2) Dolly,..the sheep ewe clone. Issues regarding body and breath(pneuma) associated with certain aspects of the soul, but distinguishable from the human spirit.

Demons fled from the demoniac and occupied the swine, so possession of animals is possible, yet animals are understood as discernible from man in that upon their bodily death they return to body, to dust, and do no ascend to heaven for they lack spirit. Care in reviewing these issues is important because the words soul and spirit are frequently used in different fashions in different languges and circumstances,....or perhaps I am simply reflecting my lack of uderstanding onthe issue.

3) Cloning of humans. Spiritual issues regarding salvation of humans are difficult enough for many to understand, but now further obfuscated by identification issues in language and assocation of person's identities between body, soul and spirit. Body might be cloned with respect to DNA and cloned persons might have identical DNA, but the reverse relationship that a cloned DNA results in a cloned person isn't known aprior. All the more reason to have the alleged human clone available to rigorous scrutiny in an appropriate setting.

Scripture is clear that the spirit is God created. There might even be situations where individual animals have been given spirit to serve God's will,...Ex, Balum's donkey, Demonized swine...

In this situation, the 'human clone' is not given a spirit by God, becuase not of the same body, soul and spiritual seed as the rest of humanity, then a counterfeit facade might exist which isn't human. (sans soul or sans God breathed spirit). Within man's domain, where unbelievers will consider the Holy Spirit and spiritually discern things to be foolish, they might be oblivious to any discernible distinction between the clone and any other man.

However laws and even Divine Institutions created for man, would then be received by the clone equally, but perhaps unwittingly inappropriately.

Many of these same doctrinal issues gave basis for the thematic significance of Mary Shelly's Frankenstein. Intersting how so much attention was refocused in Hollywood several years back on this novelist without rigorously discussing those points..
84 posted on 01/04/2003 1:41:50 PM PST by Cvengr
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