Human cloning: it's the soul, stupid

townhall ^ | January 4, 2003 | David Limbaugh

[garbanzo]

The soul begins at conception.

So is the creation of the soul a physical process resulting from the combination of egg and sperm? Otherwise you'd have to say that everytime in-vitro fertilization is perfomed God creates a new soul to put into the new zygote.

[Polycarp]

So is the creation of the soul a physical process resulting from the combination of egg and sperm?

Definitely not a physical process (souls ain't physical) and not resulting from but concommitent with the physical combination of egg and sperm.

everytime in-vitro fertilization is perfomed God creates a new soul to put into the new zygote.

Why do you think our Church still opposes in-vitro fertilization?

[garbanzo]

Do you believe that people born from IVF don't have souls? Or that God can't give clones souls if he gives them to people born from IVF?

[go star go]

If it lives, however, it must be animated by a spiritual force.

If no human soul is provided by God, then another opportunistic animating force will fill the vacuum.

So non-human animals are demon possessed? You don't own a cat do you?

[Polycarp]

A clone is an identical twin --

I do not agree with this. Identical twins by definition are two new lives spontaneously springing forth from one fertilized egg at one definite moment in time, a new unique DNA code drawn from 1/2 the DNA code from dad and 1/2 the DNA code from mom.

A clone is simply a continuation of DNA replication from an already existing donor, no 1/2 the DNA code from dad and 1/2 the DNA code from mom, not spontaneously springing forth from one fertilized egg at one definite moment in time, a new unique DNA code.

Imagine it: take a piece of skin from your forearm, separate out a single cell, remove its DNA.

Get an egg from some woman. Pull the 1/2 the DNA code from her from the nucleus of this egg.

Insert the DNA from your forearm.

Under the influence of chemicals, that egg is tricked into undergoing division.

Its subsequently implanted into a willing recepticle and born several months later.

Can you honestly say its simply your twin?

Its not your twin.

Its your clone.

And since our DNA is preprogrammed to only divide a concrete number of times, and since portions of the DNA of fully differentiated are never completely "switched on" your poor clone is doomed to an early death, whether by premature aging or early onset of strange deformities and pathologies.

Oh, just in case my theory is correct, and he has no soul, he's going to be gunning for you regarding the premature aging or early onset of strange deformities and pathologies. Hope he's got that filial love shared by twins, and not the sociopathic tendencies of those perfectly possessed...

All this is hypothetical, of course ;-)

[Polycarp]

You don't own a cat do you?

Yes. Proof positive of your querry ;-)

[watchin]

I have quietly speculated the exact same scenario. I don't want to be a "flat earther", but I fear we're creating monsters.

[Vigilant1]

So if I read the silly religious extremist dogma correctly, since a clone would have no soul, it would not be human; it would be a creature of Satan. Therefore, it would not only be okay to kill clones on sight, it would be the duty of every 'good Xn'. I see a new Salem witch trials episode looming on the horizon....

"Burn the clone! Burn the clone!"

[garbanzo]

And since our DNA is preprogrammed to only divide a concrete number of times, and since portions of the DNA of fully differentiated are never completely "switched on" your poor clone is doomed to an early death, whether by premature aging or early onset of strange deformities and pathologies.

Well this is limitation of current technology and science. Some work is being done on understanding how to "reset" DNA but first we have to understand the mechanisms for how is it set.

[go star go]

Even transfering all thoughts and memory would not recreate you. There are chemicals in your body that affected your recording of memory and your current intrepretation of those memories that would not exist in a clone. Even if the Raelians were to get a 90 second microwave clone of you they will never be able to recreate the chemicals that make you think and act like you do. These variable are based on your hormonal reactions to events that have happened to your in you life and your perceptions of what is going to happen to you based on your experiences recalled through the filter of your current chemical makeup. They can't remake you but they can make someone that looks like you. Kinda like plastic surgery only with implications for human survival that are much more intense. Because, who knows if we're kin or not?

[Polycarp]

People born from IVF are born from one egg and one sperm, a new unique DNA code drawn from 1/2 the DNA code from dad and 1/2 the DNA code from mom.

Of course I believe they have souls. Just as twins have souls.

God can't give clones souls if he gives them to people born from IVF?

Depends on how God made the world. He made all the Laws of Nature as well as the Natural Law.

He supplies the soul when a human is conceived according to the Laws of Nature as well as the Natural Law, i.e., sperm and egg coming together. (The fact that they come together in a way that violates another part of the Natural Law in the course of IVF is the basis for its illicit nature.)

On the other hand, cloning is a fundamental violation of Natural Law, and such a large deviation from it that I do not feel God is bound to give clones souls even if he does gives them to people born from IVF.

This is only my personal opinion and is not intended to represent "Catholic" opinion. I do not think the Church has spoken on this issue.

[Polycarp]

I read the silly religious extremist dogma correctly

Obviously you do not read the silly religious extremist dogma correctly.

Try to be more vigilant, and feel free to play again some time.

[ALS]

Each of the hilited words below use the same Hebrew word "nephesh". Indicating the assumption that a "soul" is like a spirit may be erroneous.

Gen 1:21
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Numbers 9:6
And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:

========================
relevant NT verses:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit , and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Revelation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

=====================

Anyone care to offer an opinionated explanation?

[ClancyJ]

We don't know. That is the main point. We can ponder and discuss but nothing changes. We are not the deciding factor - God is the Creator. I would not suggest that He would provide a soul to something created by man. Why should He?

God has a plan for man and the fact that man does not believe in God and tampers with creation of life does not mean that God changes His plan.

[go star go]

While I have to appreciate and acknowledge your sense of humor I cannot accept the idea that a clone is not human. My wife and children have taken the position that these are not human life forms. I have not engaged them on this because I suspect that they object on moral grounds and that's not necessarily my strong point.

I will simply ask you... If you met a clone and saw that it talked to you, laughed with you, cried with you, and mourned with you would you deny it inclusion in the human race? Would you defend it's life? Would it yours?

[garbanzo]

My point isn't to attack but to point out that traditional theological concepts don't make much sense to me in that with IVF you are essentially making God into a genie but this is supposed to give different results with cloning. I'm not a believer, but at least from my perspective, I'd find it hard to believe that God couldn't/wouldn't dispense a soul to a clone if he does it to twins and IVF babies.

As far as Catholicism goes, I guess once the process is more-or-less perfected, it will probably accept it as it managed to accept heliocentrism.

[go star go]

It's human DNA. It has thoughts. It breaths, laughs, crys, mourns, loves (maybe even your grandchild)... yet it's not human? If it impregnates your cranddaughter if the new child human?

[Polycarp]

it will probably accept it as it managed to accept heliocentrism

WOW. I'm speechless.

traditional theological concepts don't make much sense to me

understatement here...

[go star go]

Human beings are beings with human DNA. Any denial of that fact means that you are in denial because you do not want to accept what has happened. No matter what you believe religiously you will have to learn to deal with these PEOPLE.

[Polycarp]

I will simply ask you... If you met a clone...would you deny it inclusion in the human race?

Oh my. Am I logged on?