Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: Catholicguy
Tertullian says neither kneeling or fasting occurs on the Lord's Day.

To repeat: this particular passage has to do with penitential practices, NOT posture at Mass.

IN effect, Tertullian wrote about a "holiday from penitential practices" which extended from Easter Day through the Octave of Pentecost, AS OPPOSED to other days of the year.

My recollection is that this passage may have even been directed to catechumens as well as penitents, but I can't swear to that.

I grant you that the Lit has changed, with many Gallican influences (e.g., the Agnus Dei) over the years, and that only ROME has the power to regulate the liturgy.

Unlike some others, I am also quite aware that major and minor 'tweaks' were done over the years---e.g., (major): Pius XII allowed symphonic instruments to accompany choirs with a letter dated Christmas, 1955?/6?; and (minor) John XXIII eliminated certain prayers from the Triduum celebrations in 1960?/1?.

But what is NOT addressed by your responses, and which seems to me to be a major point, is the following: several American Bishops have declared that those who do not stand for reception of Commuion are disobedient.

This is plainly a deliberate misinterpretation of the Vatican document on the topic, or at best, a bit 'over the top.'

Please remember that the 'sensus fidelium' has rarely been disturbed by Roman regulations. Thus, "while kneeling was the common practice" means exactly that--and I find it VERY significant that the apparent 'sensus fidelium' was to kneel. Although you chose not to fully address my analogies with regard "fealty and Kings" this, too, is an important piece of the puzzle.

What we have here, today, is a regulation (as interpreted by SOME Bishops) which goes directly AGAINST the 'sensus fidelium.' And in so doing, the regulation is not consonant with other, similar, regulations issued by Rome.

Hammond may spin Jungmann's research, and Jungmann may speculate where documents are not available---all of that is a given.

But Hammond' spin, in this case, is counter-intuitive--it goes against what Jungmann plainly stated, and against even the secular traditions of kneeling before Kings to express humility (and fealty.)

Why would the Church do that??

She would not, EXCEPT for one possible reason: Rome has been deceived.

If you don't believe me, look carefully at the history of the "stand for Communion" order as detailed by Adoremus Bulletin's last two issues.

The American Bishops' representatives simply deceived Rome in stating that 'the practice of standing for reception of Commuion is universal in the American Church.'

I can tell you from personal experience and observation that that 'universality' was MANUFACTURED by the liturgy wonks and, if you wish, I will detail the processes used, because I was subjected to them, step-by-step, over a 6 year period in a Milwaukee-area parish which was run by a Rembert Weakland clone.

I sent an email (and thousands of others did, too) to a contact at the Cong/DiviniCultus and told him the same story. WITHIN ONE YEAR, the mandate to stand was SEVERELY MODIFIED by the Prefect of DiviniCultus.

Besides 'cooking the books' by forcing people to stand (and then making it seem like it was damn near spontaneous--even you will admit that it was NOT so--) the representatives to Rome also LIED. Standing was NOT a 'universal practice,' even in the N.O parishes. I can show you at least one Parish in every major city in which the people KNEEL for commmunion (some stand, some kneel.)

The fact of the matter is that this change did NOT grow from a 'sensus fidelium;' it sprang from the minds of the liturgy wonks (I suspect Hammond is one) and is, therefore, suspect.

This is no different in its way than Wilton Gregory's idea that for children's Masses on Christmas the term "feedbox" should be substituted for "manger." It got nowhere, because even Rome understood the utter vapidity of this "thought" from the ICEL crowd.

Prediction: over time, the enlightened Bishops of this country will allow, as did Bruskewitz, either posture. And as communion rails are slowly but surely re-placed in churches, kneeling will once again prevail--but it will not be IMPOSED by a pointyheaded bedwetter under utterly false and subversive cover. It will not be "twisted" from the writings of Jungmann.

AND it will be, subconsciously, a recognition of the human instinct to KNEEL in the presence of a King, which IS the 'sensus fidelium.'

151 posted on 01/05/2003 10:57:52 AM PST by ninenot
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies ]


To: ninenot
<> I agree with a lot of your points. I didn't respond specifically to the disobedient AmBishops re standing because I thought it obvious I don't support disobedience no matter from where it issues.

I know you say Tertullian's passage isn't directed at posture at Mass, but, it occurs in a paragraph (I don't have it before me)that details what Christians do at Mass. I don't see how that can be explained away.

I was trying to get at the point the kneeling isn't necesarily the best posture. Eastern Rite Catholics don't kneel, at least they didn't in the Ruthenian D.L. I attended a few years ago. I was trying to get at the fact, and I think it is factual, that kneeling was prohibited during Mass, at least twixt Easter and Pentecost, and it seems to me that practice might have been extended further so that standing was the norm.

Jungmannn makes the case that was the practice in the 9th Century when kneeling was imposed and Church architecture was changed, for among some reasons, to reflect the rule of kneeling. I know you have a liturgist friend that is researching this and I look forward to hearing his thoughts on the matter.

I don't mean to give the impression I know one-half as much as you about these matters. However, the material I have read leads me to think either posture acceptable.

That you had to live under the suzerainty of Weakland and are still Catholic is testament to the power of the Holy Spirit :)

As regards the Fealty to Kings point, I agree and have had that exchange with you previously. We both know the Credo became part of the Roman Rite when a King (His name escapes me) requested it be included in his Coronation Mass. Prior to that, the Credo was not professed.

Now, I like the Credo at Mass and think it apt. But, imagine the sspx types back then howling about the traditional Mass being changed to satisfy the personal desires of some wealthy,politically powerful, Royalty?

I know presentism is an error, so , let's just imagine how we would have reacted had John Fitzgerald Kennedy successfully had the Mass altered to suit his desires<>

154 posted on 01/06/2003 4:40:54 AM PST by Catholicguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies ]

To: ninenot
<> From "New Advent" website, "Genulfexion.". Although differing with dates, they agree with Jungmann<>

Turning now to the liturgical prayer of the Christian Church, it is very evident that standing, not kneeling, is the correct posture for those taking part in it. A glance at the attitude of a priest officiating at Mass or Vespers, or using the Roman Ritual, will be sufficient proof. The clergy in attendance also, and even the laity assisting, are, by the rubrics, assumed to be standing. The Canon of the Mass designates them as "circumstantes". The practice of kneeling during the Consecration was introduced during the Middle Ages, and is in relation with the Elevation which originated in the same period. The rubric directing that while the celebrant and his ministers recite the Psalm "Judica", and make the Confession, those present who are not prelates should kneel, is a mere reminiscence of the fact that these introductory devotions were originally private prayers of preparation, and therefore outside the liturgy properly so called. It must not, in this connexion escape attention that, in proportion as the faithful have ceased to follow the liturgy, replacing its formulæ by private devotions, the standing attitude has fallen more and more into disuse among them. In our own time it is quite usual for the congregation at a high Mass to stand for the Gospel and Creed; and, at all other times either to remain seated (when this is permitted) or to kneel. There are, nevertheless, certain liturgical prayers to kneel during which is obligatory, the reason being that kneeling is the posture especially appropriate to the supplications of penitents, and is a characteristic attitude of humble entreaty in general. Hence, litanies are chanted, kneeling, unless (which in ancient times was deemed even more fitting) they can be gone through by a procession of mourners. So, too, public penitents knelt during such portions of the liturgy as they were allowed to assist at. The modern practice of Solemn Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament for public adoration has naturally led to more frequent and more continuous kneeling in church than formerly. Thus, at a Benediction service it is obligatory to kneel from beginning to end of the function, except during the chant of the Te Deum and like hymns of Praise.

155 posted on 01/06/2003 5:08:45 AM PST by Catholicguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson