Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: Catholicguy
As I suspected, my "liturgy guru" (and he does have qualifications which we can discuss if necessary) had the same thoughts as I (email received only a couple of minutes ago...)

He is unable to find or recall any documents which indicate that there was a 'forcible' aspect to the kneeling apparently arising in the 8th/9th centuries.

Part of the larger problem is that there is simply little (or no) documentation to support the "factual" statements of liturgical reformers. They simply propound that "XYZ is fact" and we are supposed to accept it as so. When research demonstrates that either it is NOT fact, or that it is merely speculation, the credibility of the reformers is eroded.

You may recall that 15 years ago, "reformers" postulated (as fact) that not only were priests married until some draconian disciplinarian stopped the practice--but that there were "deaconesses," which were ladies who were ordained.

Five years later a scholar refuted every single "fact" that the reformers had postulated--and he did it with documentary and irrefutable evidence. While it was a fact that some priests were married, they gave up relations with their wives. There were 'deaconesses,' but the title did NOT indicate ordination--rather, a vocation (in this case, health-care.)

But in this discussion, you have made the statement, thus you still have the obligation to prove: that the laity were "forced" to kneel against their tradition.

Ball's in your court.

112 posted on 01/04/2003 6:55:30 AM PST by ninenot
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 110 | View Replies ]


To: ninenot
<> Tertullian "The Crown," 211 a.D. "We regard it as unlawfull to fast or to worship on our knees on the Lord's Day." (Juegens, in a footnote, cites 325 Council of Nicea, 20th Canon that forbade the custom of those "who are bending their knees on Sunday and on the days of Pentecost.)

Ecumenical Council supresses tradition. Prolly there was the SSPM (Societ of Pope St. Melchaides) formed to protest the supression of traditon; who knows?

Our friend Fr. Jungmann cites Geilmann, "Die Abenmahlslehre" 21-36, infra, Vol 11, Chap. 1,3 and Vol. 11, Chap 3,13 re the imposition of kneeling

The ball has been back-handed down the line and it kicked-up some chalk :)<>

115 posted on 01/04/2003 10:37:53 AM PST by Catholicguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies ]

To: ninenot
<> There are some actions I think all would like to see restored. Such as the boy-abbot in the monastery schools on the Feast of Holy Innocents at Vespers, when the words "deposuit potentes de sede" were sung, was summarily shoved from his chair."
119 posted on 01/04/2003 10:52:24 AM PST by Catholicguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson