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News from Adoremus Bulletin 12/02
Adoremus Bulletin ^ | December 19, 2002 | Adoremus Bulletin Staff

Posted on 01/01/2003 5:13:54 AM PST by ninenot

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To: Desdemona; AnAmericanMother; ninenot
I've enjoyed your discussion on music. I am not musically inclined in any sort of way and mumble through most hymns so as to not offend those sitting around me.

It would seem very easy for your "performance" (sorry, I can't think of a better word and I know this one is wrong) to become a real performance and take away from the participation of the congregation. I have seen this happen frequently at my own parish to such an extent that Mass seems to loose focus. Especially when there is no participation and then clapping :-(

So my question is, how do you strike the right balance to make music spiritually uplifting?

121 posted on 01/04/2003 12:03:30 PM PST by cebadams
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To: cebadams
It would seem very easy for your "performance" (sorry, I can't think of a better word and I know this one is wrong) to become a real performance and take away from the participation of the congregation.

It is, actually, and depending on your perspective, it's a problem or it's not. If you like to participate in the music at Mass, it's a problem. If you're a soloist, like I am, and have a true, honest solo voice, and want to give back what was given to you and nurtured, the congregation simply can't keep up. I know that. So, one solution has been to simply eliminate anything that smacks of performance. OTOH, that detracts from the artistry. It's difficult paradox against church teaching on work and developing talent.

Somewhere, there has to be a balance, but we really haven't found it yet.
122 posted on 01/04/2003 12:18:27 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: Catholicguy
Tertullian "The Crown," 211 a.D. "We regard it as unlawfull to fast or to worship on our knees on the Lord's Day." (Juegens, in a footnote, cites 325 Council of Nicea, 20th Canon that forbade the custom of those "who are bending their knees on Sunday and on the days of Pentecost.)

I am reasonably certain that you would not use this cite unless you were fed it by a liturgy liar. Were you to read the rest of it you would be aware that the cite has to do with the "overly-penitent" types--who were perhaps pushing the envelope towards "look at me, I'm penitent..." As to the other cite, I will be back to you.l

123 posted on 01/04/2003 12:23:14 PM PST by ninenot
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To: cebadams
So my question is, how do you strike the right balance to make music spiritually uplifting?

Des will speak for herself, but allow me a couple of 'background' observations.

Methinks that you have read far too much of the "modern liturgical" literature which sets up a false dichotomy: that one can either 'participate' or 'listen.' To one degree or the other, this dichotomy has been used to browbeat otherwise well-meaning people into "sing, jump, say, repeat, shake, rattle, and roll" activities---none of which are necessary.

The phrase "actuosa participatio" used in the VII document on the liturgy does NOT mean "active participation." Rather, it means a metanoia--conforming one's mind to the action of Christ in the Sacrifice of the Mass, and His prayer life.

This 'conformance' allows for several possible routes, among them being intense prayer (with the priest simply by following the text he reads,); one's own self-offering at the Offertory; and thanksgiving after Communion.

Now the nature of genuine liturgical music is "that which elevates the minds and hearts of the Faithful to God" (Pius X.) In brief, this music MUST: 1) use acknowledged 'sacred' texts (eg from the Scripture or text of the Mass;) 2) be 'holy, beautiful, and universal' (also Pius X) and 3) thus be truly art.

Properly speaking, then, this music SHOULD transport the listener (who listens actively--thus participates actively) to God, or at least FROM the world.

Therefore, liturgical music as defined above, serves the purpose of encouraging or helping the listener "to raise his mind and heart to God."

In fact, this IS ACTIVE PARTICIPATION, or conforming one's mind to the Mind of Christ, as Beauty is an attribute of God.

Please pardon me if this is a bit abstruse, but it is important.

It is also important to know that the church choir serves BOTH as representatives of the laity AND as representatives of the angelic choir (cf. Ratzinger and Pius X, Pius XII.) Thus the choir (and delegated singers therefrom) are singing not only 'for' you, in which activity you can join mentally, but 'to' you (eg at the Sanctus, which is a DIRECT quote from the angels' words as recorded in Scripture.)

All to help YOU "lift your mind and heart to God."

SO much for false dichotomies.

124 posted on 01/04/2003 12:59:27 PM PST by ninenot
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To: Desdemona
See my post # 124. You might want to know the theory before you get trapped in the 'dicotomy' war and get snookered.
125 posted on 01/04/2003 1:01:38 PM PST by ninenot
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To: ninenot
This is the part that my parish has a problem with:

Now the nature of genuine liturgical music is "that which elevates the minds and hearts of the Faithful to God" (Pius X.) In brief, this music MUST: 1) use acknowledged 'sacred' texts (eg from the Scripture or text of the Mass;) 2) be 'holy, beautiful, and universal' (also Pius X) and 3) thus be truly art.
... where music often devolves into various renderings of Puff the Magic Dragon and where the assembly is often asked to sing along but the three part harmony is tough for us non-musically inclined :-)
126 posted on 01/04/2003 1:26:30 PM PST by cebadams
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To: Desdemona
Even singing in my head voice I still have a pretty low range. I can work my way up into the upper ranges with a lot of concentrated practice . . . but I don't like it up there, I get nosebleeds ( ;-) )

Our staff tenor is ex-Santa Fe Opera and a voice teacher . . . he's kind enough to coach those of us who are interested . . . bless his heart, he does the best he can with me working on proper breathing and support techniques. (When my daughter was two, I introduced him to her as "Prince Tamino". Her eyes got big as saucers, and she said, "I'm so glad you're all right. I was SO worried about you." She thought he really WAS Tamino until she was about 5.)

127 posted on 01/04/2003 3:59:03 PM PST by AnAmericanMother
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To: cebadams
Especially when there is no participation and then clapping :-(

I utterly and totally loathe and despise clapping in church. Fortunately our congregation never applauds sacred music during the Mass. Unfortunately the line has not been held for awards, appointments of vestry, etc. that occur either right before the service begins or during the sort of lull right after the Peace that is used for announcements. (My personal opinion is that announcements should be made before the service or afterwards. Too disruptive during, even after the Peace.)

Now for your other question. Two aspects: practical and philosophical.

1. Practical. The church I now attend was founded in the 60s, with all of the touchy-feely nonsense that pertains to that era. One of the original rector's less than bright ideas was based on just your objection - that a "trained choir of unsanctified singers" detracted from community worship, and that all singing should be congregational. In practice, it meant that nobody sang. Part of the problem was that the acoustics of the very radical 60s-architect-designed building were so rotten that you could only hear the person to your immediate left and right. If THEY weren't singing, you got embarassed and mumbled to a halt. Since nobody could hear anybody else, EVERYBODY mumbled to a halt. Thankfully when our current choirmaster came on board he got a first class choir organized, and then agitated for an acoustic reworking of the sanctuary that turned into a general renovation. The congregation is much happier now (they can hear each other, and they have a choir to lead the singing.)

2. Philosophical. The problem with music is that to be well done (and a work done in honor of God SHOULD be well done to the best of ones ability) it requires talent, training, and intense concentration. Music that is simple enough for the average non-musically-trained member of the congregation to sing along, will be less than the best that the trained singer can offer to the glory of God. The best composers of sacred music have offered to God music that can ONLY be sung by a well-rehearsed group of trained singers. To discard the choir would be to discard not only an entire body of music by Bach, Mozart, Palestrina, Byrd, Dowland &c. &c. &c., but to discard the God-given talents of those who sing.

That said, the singers have a responsibility to sing the music sensibly, well, and sensitively to the role they play in the service. Think (for an analogy) of the difference between a singer at a baseball game who gets up and sings the "Star Spangled Banner" clearly, plainly, on pitch, and as written, and the hatchet job pop singers who get up there and howl, hang on the high notes, add all sorts of trills, octaves, and other flashy fireworks not in the music, and generally mess around in order to show off their "voice" or their "style". The first is honorable and does honor to the National Anthem, the second is not because it moves the focus from honoring America to paying attention to the singer. Same rule applies in church.

128 posted on 01/04/2003 4:16:32 PM PST by AnAmericanMother
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To: cebadams
where music often devolves into various renderings of Puff the Magic Dragon

My choirmaster calls this "Jump for Jesus Music." The Music Department has managed to quarantine it into the Folk Mass, which is perpetrated on the congregation on alternate Sundays at the 9 am Mass.

Now before you think I'm ratting on the Folk Choir because I'm in the Parish Choir, I have identifiable and provable objections to this sort of music: (1) It is objectively BAD music - trite, repetitive, simplistic "pop" settings of badly written, cheap, sentimental poetry. It neither uses sacred texts nor is it holy, beautiful or universal. (2) Because of its badness, it is difficult to sing it well. (3) The people who lead the singing at Folk Mass are the people who WANT to sing but can't sing well enough to make the Parish Choir, they are the very people who CANNOT sing this sort of music well. So you wind up with bad texts set to rotten music, performed by people who cannot hold pitch, keep time, or remember the words and watch the director at the same time.

129 posted on 01/04/2003 4:29:13 PM PST by AnAmericanMother
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To: ninenot
Thank you. But, I'm not the one trapped, exactly. I'm the one at the mercy of pastors and choir directors who actually believe this stuff. Since I've been on this forum, I've learned a lot and frankly, where I live, there aren't choir directors willing to buck the trend. So, aside from the usual three or four campy solos at funerals, there isn't any material approaching the true glory of God's gifts. (and I'm sick of the Mass of Creation)

Heck, at the last place, on Christmas and Easter the psalms weren't cantored by one, but a section. Personally, I think a lot of it is ego driven.
130 posted on 01/04/2003 6:16:35 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: ninenot
Now the nature of genuine liturgical music is "that which elevates the minds and hearts of the Faithful to God" (Pius X.) In brief, this music MUST: 1) use acknowledged 'sacred' texts (eg from the Scripture or text of the Mass;) 2) be 'holy, beautiful, and universal' (also Pius X) and 3) thus be truly art.

Properly speaking, then, this music SHOULD transport the listener (who listens actively--thus participates actively) to God, or at least FROM the world.


Thus effectively actually disqualifying almost everything "composed" since 1965.

Too bad I can't get anyone to believe me.
131 posted on 01/04/2003 6:19:35 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: cebadams
... where music often devolves into various renderings of Puff the Magic Dragon and where the assembly is often asked to sing along but the three part harmony is tough for us non-musically inclined

In my current parish, they try three parts when none of the singers can actually hold a tune....
132 posted on 01/04/2003 6:21:32 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: AnAmericanMother
Why would we think you're ratting. You're absolutely right.

I wonder if congregations were polled on their preferences, if folk groups half the crappy music would still exist.
133 posted on 01/04/2003 6:24:44 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona
Lucky for me the folk group is at the 6pm Saturday Mass and not the Sunday Masses. There is an interesting groan that occurs when they show up at any of the Sunday Masses as substitutes for the choir.

We have a choir (in the loft) at the early Sunday Mass and also a more contempory group at the piano up front near the alter at the later Sunday Mass. Both of these groups are very talented and for the most part are a joy to listen to. Occassionaly, they seem to sing something that lasts much too long and I have recently begun singing more and more of the Mass -- most recently the Gloria and the Kyrie.

I am most bothered by the location of the choral group (up front next to the alter).
134 posted on 01/04/2003 6:56:41 PM PST by cebadams
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To: cebadams
oops -- should of said: THEY have recently begun singing more and more of the Mass -- most recently the Gloria and the Kyrie.
135 posted on 01/04/2003 6:59:26 PM PST by cebadams
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To: cebadams
It's okay. The Kyrie and the Gloria are supposed to be sung. Technically. Although the Glorias can go on forever.

If you all have something to say about the music and placement of the choir, speak up. Otherwise, you'll be groaning a lot.
136 posted on 01/04/2003 7:06:30 PM PST by Desdemona
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To: AnAmericanMother
Music that is simple enough for the average non-musically-trained member of the congregation to sing along, will be less than the best that the trained singer can offer to the glory of God.

Might I suggest that you have forgotten Gregorian Chant, specified as a "model" of sacred music by Pius X, and explicitly encouraged by both VatII and Paul VI.

ANY congregation can sing ANY Ordinary in Chant, with a bit of 'hear-sing' training.

137 posted on 01/04/2003 9:48:24 PM PST by ninenot
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To: Desdemona
There is, actually, some decent stuff composed in the last 30 or so years--but you have to know where to find it, and it's not Oregon Catholic Press.
138 posted on 01/04/2003 9:50:55 PM PST by ninenot
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To: ninenot
I am reasonably certain that you would not use this cite unless you were fed it by a liturgy liar.

<> Although you are reasonably certain, you are, nevertheless, wrong. I read that in Jurgen's "The Faith of the Early Fathers" long before I read "The Mass of the Roman Rite" by Fr Joseph A. Jungmann, S.J., whose reputation, contra your personal objection to him, is secure as an excellent scholar and whom Cardinal Ratzinger publicly praised as one of our generations great liturgical experts.

I am not sure how you became such an astute critic of Jungmann's having not read the text in question, but, I am sure there exists an explanation...<>

139 posted on 01/05/2003 3:23:19 AM PST by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
CANON XX. FORASMUCH as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere(in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.

NOTES.

ANCIENT EPITOME OF CANON XX.

On Lord's days and at Pentecost all must pray standing and not kneeling.

HAMMOND.

Although kneeling was the common posture for prayer in the primitive Church, yet the custom had prevailed, even from the earliest times, of standing at prayer on the Lord's day, and during the fifty days between Easter and Pentecost. Tertullian, in a passage in his treatise De Corona Militis, which is often quoted, mentions it amongst other ohservances which, though not expressly commanded in Scripture, yet were universally practised upon the authority of tradition. "We consider it unlawful," he says, "to fast, or to pray kneeling, upon the Lord's day; we enjoy the same liberty from Easter-day to that of Pentecost." De Cor. Mil. s. 3, 4. Many other of the Fathers notice the same practice, the reason of which, as given by Augustine; and others, was to commemorate the resurrection of our Lord, and to signify the rest and joy of our own resurrection, which that of our Lord assured. This canon, as Beveridge observes, is a proof of the importance formerly attached to an uniformity of sacred rites throughout the Church, which made the Nicene Fathers thus sanction and enforce by their authority a practice which in itself is indifferent, and not commanded directly or indirectly in Scripture, and assign this as their reason for doing so: "In order that all things may be observed in like manner in every parish" or diocese.

HEFELE. All the churches did not, however, adopt this practice; for we see in the Acts of the Apostles(xx. 36 and xxi. 5) that St. Paul prayed kneeling during the time between Pentecost and Easter.

This canon is found in the Corpus Juris Canonici. Decretum, Pars III, De Cone. Dist. III. c. x.

<> Now, you may or may not like this fact exists, and you can attribute to it any rationalisation for its existence you desire, the fact remains kneelinG WAS prohibited and that was the proof you demanded.

. Again, the ball has passed you by and kicked up the chalk at the intersection of the sideline and the baseline.

40 lOVE<>

140 posted on 01/05/2003 3:36:50 AM PST by Catholicguy
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