Court Rejects Lawmakers' Challenge to ABM Withdrawal

AP ^ | 12/30/02 | The Associated Press

[concerned about politics]

The ABM Treaty was a vital arms control agreement between the United States and the Soviet Union.

There is no Soviet Union. It's a treaty with a ghost. Ghosts aren't protected by our Constitution - yet.
Give the liberals a few years, and the democrat ghost voters will be askng for elitist status!

[concerned about politics]

The thirty-one Members of Congress bringing the lawsuit are:

Just more Democrat anti-Amercans, and one Independant following the herd. Go figure.

[steveegg]

Lessee; we've got a dead broad, Wisconsin's most embarrassing Congresscritter, the Baghdad two-step, the only impeached/convicted member of Congress, the only admitted Communist, the fattest member of Congress, a Congresscritter who's been served her eviction papers, assorted race pimps and the most-clueless member of Congress. No Senators, though, and no one with enough brains to file this in the right court (and I won't be giving hints as to which court that may be).

[goldstategop]

Not completely accurate. While the Senate must give advice and consent to treaties, the House does have a role in treaty making under the Constitution in that it has to appropriate monies to carry out the terms of the treaty. But since here the House never acted to appropriate funds to implement the ABM Treaty or to otherwise take steps to block the President's withdrawal of this country's being a party to the aforesaid treaty, the suit by the members had no legal standing. And the courts as a rule do not get involved in political controversies.

[Poohbah]

In this case, the terms of the ABM Treaty were negative in nature (meaning that we agreed to NOT build ABM systems), and did not involve any expenditure of funds. In that sense, you're correct.

[Poohbah]

I think you mean the treaty ceded him this power. Thus, the treaty, or 'law' allowed a process in which the President can effectively withdraw from it. He simply followed its terms. What a waste of judicial resources.

No, I meant that the withdrawal clause of the ABM Treaty did not create a process specifically identifying the President as having the authority to issue the withdrawal unilaterally.

There is an interesting Constitutional question that remains unasked: can the President unilaterally withdraw from a treaty without a clause in that treaty specifically granting that power to the President? Or does the Senate have any say in the matter, as they are responsible for ratifying treaties?

This is an interesting separation of powers issue. The Executive Branch, as head of state, is responsible for intercourse with other nations at a state-to-state level (diplomacy and negotiating treaties). However, the Senate is charged with giving a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down on treaties--and the treaties' status as law does give the Senate at least a pretext of a claim on the decision to maintain or renounce them. A reasonable and sane argument can be made on both sides of this issue.

However, as I noted earlier, the Senate has punted on this issue. If they do it often enough, then the courts will be forced to say that whatever implied power the Senate may have had was lost by voluntary cession.

[michigander]

Not sure if there are any answers in this but...

GOLDWATER v CARTER

[Teacher317]

The Executive Branch, as head of state, is responsible for intercourse with other nations at a state-to-state level.

That explains Clinton's administration! ;^)

Isn't it interesting how liberals race to find a sympathetic court when they don't get their way?

[hobbes1]

Congressmen, That don't get that whole "Constitution' thing...

[Sparta]

The members of the Progressive Caucus:

Peter DeFazio

Dennis Kucinich (Chairman)

Barbara Lee (Vice Chair)

Cynthia McKinney(DEFEATED)

Major Owens

Bernie Sanders

Paul Wellstone(ASSUMED ROOM TEMPERATURE)



Neil Abercrombie

Tammy Baldwin

Xavier Becerra

David Bonior(LEAVING)

Corrine Brown

Sherrod Brown

Michael Capuano

Julia Carson

William "Lacy" Clay

John Conyers

Danny Davis

Rosa DeLauro

Lane Evans

Eni Faleomavaega

Sam Farr

Chaka Fattah

Bob Filner

Barney Frank

Luis Gutierrez

Earl Hilliard

Maurice Hinchey

Jesse Jackson, Jr

Sheila Jackson-Lee

Stephanie Tubbs Jones

Marcy Kaptur

Tom Lantos

John Lewis

Jim McDermott

James P. McGovern

Carrie Meek

George Miller

Patsy Mink(ASSUMED ROOM TEMPERATURE)

Jerry Nadler

Eleanor Holmes Norton

John Olver

Ed Pastor

Donald Payne

Nancy Pelosi

Bobby Rush

Jan Schakowsky

Jose Serrano

Hilda Solis

Pete Stark

Bennie Thompson

John Tierney

Tom Udall

Nydia Velazquez

Maxine Waters

Diane Watson

Mel Watt

Henry Waxman


Lynn Woolsey

[Poohbah]

Get your mind out of the gutter :o)

Isn't it interesting how liberals race to find a sympathetic court when they don't get their way?

Yes, it is.

This question, though, is one of those issues that's never been properly raised. Maybe it should be, just to clear the air. Or perhaps its already too late to do so--have very many treaties been unilaterally renounced by the Executive without protest from the Senate?

[Poohbah]

Interesting link. I think the "best chance" for review of this issue would be for the President to unilaterally revoke a treaty, and the Senate, as a body, to seek remedy in the Judicial branch (by passing a formal resolution and directing their counsel to pursue such a suit). All pretty much agreed that the issue was, in some manner, justicable; they just didn't agree on how it was justicable.

[Darksheare]

I don't see why they're objecting to our withdrawl from a treaty that the Russians broke every chance they got.
As well as it being an insane treaty signed into law to 'garner the affection' of a morally corrupt and insane nation.

[lepton]

If the Russians aren't complaining about it, our Left can hardly be softer on national defense than Moscow.

An interesting tidbit: While the debate was going on, President Bush visited President Putin, and in conversation noted to Putin that the American media trusts his opinion more than it does Bush's - and that if Putin didn't make a big deal out of it, the media would let it go. Putin didn't so the issue went away.

[Rome2000]

This suit was brought by "Progressive Caucus" members, a bunch of socialist scumbags who are scared stiff that they are going to be rounded up and disappeared one day.

Democratic Socialists of America's Progressive Caucus, a group ofUNPATRIOTIC UNAMERICAN subversives that are actively engaged in overthrowing the capitalist system of government in the USA and transforming it into a socialist nation.

"Progressive" is a code word for socialist, note that Sanders of VT is an officer.

Why these people are allowed to get on national TV and not disclose or be asked by the press reagrding their membership in a socialist organization is beyond me.

The table below was downloaded from the Democratic Socialists of America

Members of the Progressive Caucus

officers
Member/Position/District	Address	Phone	Website
Peter DeFazio (OFFICER, OREGON-04)	2134 RHOB	225-6416	WEBSITE
Dennis Kucinich (Chairman) (CHAIR, OHIO-10)	1730 LHOB	225-5871	WEBSITE
Barbara Lee (Vice Chair) (OFFICER, CALIFORNIA-09)	426 CHOB	225-2661	WEBSITE
Cynthia McKinney (OFFICER, GEORGIA-04)	124 CHOB	225-1605	WEBSITE
Major Owens (OFFICER, NEW YORK-11)	2309 RHOB	225-6231	WEBSITE
Bernie Sanders (OFFICER, VERMONT)	2135 RHOB	225-4115	WEBSITE
Paul Wellstone (OFFICER, MINNESOTA)	136 HSOB	224-5641	WEBSITE

members
Member/Position/District	Address	Phone	Website
Neil Abercrombie (MEMBER, HAWAII-01)	1502 LHOB	225-2726	WEBSITE
Tammy Baldwin (MEMBER, WISCONSIN-02)	1022 LHOB	225-2906	WEBSITE
Xavier Becerra (MEMBER, CALIFORNIA-30)	1119 LHOB	225-6235	WEBSITE
David Bonior (MEMBER, MICHIGAN-10)	2207 RHOB	225-2106	WEBSITE
Corrine Brown (MEMBER, FLORIDA-03)	2444 RHOB	225-0123	WEBSITE
Sherrod Brown (MEMBER, OHIO-13)	2438 RHOB	225-3401	WEBSITE
Michael Capuano (MEMBER, MASSACHUSETTS-08)	1232 LHOB	225-5111	WEBSITE
Julia Carson (MEMBER, INDIANA-10)	1339 LHOB	225-4011	WEBSITE
William "Lacy" Clay (MEMBER, MISSOURI-01)	415 CHOB	225-2406	WEBSITE
John Conyers (MEMBER, MICHIGAN-14)	2426 RHOB	225-5126	WEBSITE
Danny Davis (MEMBER, ILLINOIS-07)	1222 LHOB	225-5006	WEBSITE
Rosa DeLauro (MEMBER, CONNECTICUT-03)	2262 RHOB	225-3661	WEBSITE
Lane Evans (MEMBER, ILLINOIS-17)	2211 RHOB	225-5905	WEBSITE
Eni Faleomavaega (MEMBER, AMERICAN SAMOA)	2422 RHOB	225-8577	WEBSITE
Sam Farr (MEMBER, CALIFORNIA-17)	1221 LHOB	225-2861	WEBSITE
Chaka Fattah (MEMBER, PENNSYLVANIA-02)	1205 LHOB	225-4001	WEBSITE
Bob Filner (MEMBER, CALIFORNIA-50)	2463 RHOB	225-8045	WEBSITE
Barney Frank (MEMBER, MASSACHUSETTS-04)	2252 RHOB	225-5931	WEBSITE
Luis Gutierrez (MEMBER, ILLINOIS-04)	2452 RHOB	225-8203	WEBSITE
Earl Hilliard (MEMBER, ALABAMA-07)	1314 LHOB	225-2665	WEBSITE
Maurice Hinchey (MEMBER, NEW YORK-26)	2431 RHOB	225-6335	WEBSITE
Jesse Jackson, Jr (MEMBER, ILLINOIS-02)	313 CHOB	225-0773
Sheila Jackson-Lee (MEMBER, TEXAS-18)	403 CHOB	225-3816	WEBSITE
Stephanie Tubbs Jones (MEMBER, OHIO-11)	1516 LHOB	225-7032	WEBSITE
Marcy Kaptur (MEMBER, OHIO-09)	2366 RHOB	225-4146	WEBSITE
Tom Lantos (MEMBER, CALIFORNIA-12)	2217 RHOB	225-3531	WEBSITE
John Lewis (MEMBER, GEORGIA-05)	343 CHOB	225-3801	WEBSITE
Jim McDermott (MEMBER, WASHINGTON-07)	1035 LHOB	225-3106	WEBSITE
James P. McGovern (MEMBER, MASSACHUSETTS-03)	430 CHOB	225-6101	WEBSITE
Carrie Meek (MEMBER, FLORIDA-17)	2433 RHOB	225-4506	WEBSITE
George Miller (MEMBER, CALIFORNIA-07)	2205 RHOB	225-2095	WEBSITE
Patsy Mink (MEMBER, HAWAII-02)	2210 RHOB	225-4906	WEBSITE
Jerry Nadler (MEMBER, NEW YORK-08)	2334 RHOB	225-5635	WEBSITE
Eleanor Holmes Norton (MEMBER, D.C.)	2136 RHOB	225-8050	WEBSITE
John Olver (MEMBER, MASSACHUSETTS-01)	1027 LHOB	225-5335	WEBSITE
Ed Pastor (MEMBER, ARIZONA-02)	2465 RHOB	225-4065	WEBSITE
Donald Payne (MEMBER, NEW JERSEY-10)	2209 RHOB	225-3436	WEBSITE
Nancy Pelosi (MEMBER, CALIFORNIA-08)	2457 RHOB	225-4965	WEBSITE
Bobby Rush (MEMBER, ILLINOIS-01)	2416 RHOB	225-4372	WEBSITE
Jan Schakowsky (MEMBER, ILLINOIS-09)	515 CHOB	225-2111	WEBSITE
Jose Serrano (MEMBER, NEW YORK-16)	2342 RHOB	225-4361	WEBSITE
Hilda Solis (MEMBER, CALIFORNIA-31)	1641 LHOB	225-5464	WEBSITE
Pete Stark (MEMBER, CALIFORNIA-13)	239 CHOB	225-5065	WEBSITE
Bennie Thompson (MEMBER, MISSISSIPPI-02)	2432 RHOB	225-5876	WEBSITE
John Tierney (MEMBER, MASSACHUSETTS-06)	120 CHOB	225-8020	WEBSITE
Tom Udall (MEMBER, NEW MEXICO-03)	502 CHOB	225-6190	WEBSITE
Nydia Velazquez (MEMBER, NEW YORK-12)	2241 RHOB	225-2361	WEBSITE
Maxine Waters (MEMBER, CALIFORNIA-35)	2344 RHOB	225-2201	WEBSITE
Diane Watson (MEMBER, CALIFORNIA-32)	2413 RHOB	225-7084	WEBSITE
Mel Watt (MEMBER, NORTH CAROLINA-12)	2236 RHOB	225-1510	WEBSITE
Henry Waxman (MEMBER, CALIFORNIA-29)	2204 RHOB	225-3976	WEBSITE
Lynn Woolsey (MEMBER, CALIFORNIA-06)	2263 RHOB	225-5161	WEBSITE

Congressional Progressive Caucus

[princess leah]

Let's see - you've got Patsy MInk and Paul WEllstone ~ sure is great to see those liberal DEAD folks still working hard!

[Darksheare]

Now THAT is an evil psychological ploy against the Communist media...

[LaraCroft]

I'm curious if there were any public funds used to bring this lawsuit.