Lessons From The Fall Of An Empire

Financial Times (via Drudge) ^ | Dec 29, 2002 | Harold James

[Fiddlstix]

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[LadyDoc]

Gibbon saw his story of decline and fall in terms of a revolt against Roman universalism driven by a Christian and egalitarian protest against the unequal distribution of property.

Gibbons hated christianity, so he blamed it on the Christians

However, a better explanation is the new presence of malaria in the swamps near Rome (Imported from North Africa) which does not kill adults, but kills babies and weakens people's ability to work. And then there were several very bad epidemics,including the bad one brought in from fighting the Persians. They think it was smallpox, but it could have been typhus or typhoid or even measles (which is fatal in new populations). The financial collapse, which was one of the causes of the French revolution, was also important to Rome. But when depopulation occurs due to disease, the tax base collapses (a problem more likely in socialist Europe than here).

The decadence of Rome led to promiscuity and the collapse of the native Romans. But then the the influx of new blood first from the other Italian states and later from other Roman provences allowed Rome to last a couple hundred more years.So multiculturalism was not the problem: Like St. Paul, these outsiders were proud to be Roman (just like my husband is proud to be an American and a vet despite the fact he was born outside the country). Rome fell because outsiders were taught to fight, and when they came into Rome they realized that Rome wouldn't fight for itself, but relied on mercenaries. Again, this shows more danger to Europe than to the US.

The History channel is supposed to have a program on Vespusius this week, the emperor who saved Rome. Might be interesting.

[ex-snook]

Interesting post. In short, no country has come up with a successful formula to sustain 'Empire'. Of course this is measured over time for a country. However, controlling individuals(groups) in that country will benefit during their own time and, hence, they will not make any effort to reverse the slouch to collapse.

Hopefully our form of government, an 'of the people' democracy, will avoid the dominating ruler syndrome of the past and be able to cast out leaders unwilling to right the ship. Or will we be also captivated by some 'great man' acting as the pied piper as we willingly drown?

[ChadGore]

Dispite the authors willingness to engage the term, America is not an empire, nor empirialistic.

[Williams]

Decline and Fall covers a 1500 year period of time. It is probably the greatest historical observation on the nature of people and of nations. However, this author's "lessons" drawn from Gibbons are nonsense. Gibbons felt the Romans became effeminate and unwarlike due in part to the influence of christianity. But Gibbons was not that simplistic and one has to read the incredible history of those hundreds of years to understand what happened.

One of my favorite passages is Gibbons' statement that Rome fell to Alaric after the gates of the city were thrown open in the middle of the night by Germanic inhabitants who were more devoted to Rome's enemies than to Rome. If you want to make an analogy you can compare this to the threat posed by illegal aliens or by immigrants who don't share American values today.

Gibbons recognized military reality and he did not believe that Rome should have just played defense. He recognized many many Roman victories as essential to the Empire's survival, and noted many lost opportunities as well.

[dasboot]

Bingo! Gold ring to you, sir!

[Williams]

If you want to read something on the cyclical nature of nations rising, growing to empire, and then decline, your best bet is Toynbee's A Study Of History.

[ex-snook]

"your best bet is Toynbee's A Study Of History. "

Thanks I agree. I did that a good number of years ago but in a one volume summary.

[shrinkermd]

There is something different this time. The technology of war, including weapons of mass destruction, is such that a mere handful can control hundreds of millions --yes, even billions. That is why Iran, Iraq and N Korea will all be disarmed of WMD or have regime changes or both. Only a few larger powers will have WMD. Even these must be reduced in number and power.

The remaining nuclear and other powers will gradually interact so much, it will be unnecessary to continue with multiple sources of WMD. It may take decades but globalization will eventually result in only one military power. How this will be finalized is unclear, but it will happen or else we will have a catastrophe. Considering the many years of confrontation, it is almost a miracle that we and the old Soviet Union and Red China did not have a nuclear exchange. Someone did their job.

[Happy2BMe]

"Why did the Roman version of uni- polarity collapse? Gibbon's empire depended at the height of its success on a sort of multiculturalism, which Romans put in terms of the admission of local deities to the quite crowded complex of the Roman imperial pantheon. In the same way, the US has recently gone out of its way to show how eagerly it will embrace a non-threatening version of Islamic (or indeed Hindu or Confucian) values."

Up until the mid-1960's, American values were the highest in the world.

When was the last time you heard things like "An honest day's work for an honest day's pay." or "I hate a liar and a thief."?

Our culture has been so raped, squeezed, dumbed-down, and ravaged by the likes of the NAACP, ACLU, NOW, The (socialist) Democrat Party that noone even knows what a "value" is anymore.

Lying, cheating and stealing are glorified in our national media (movies, talk shows, newspapers, magazines) that honesty is literally laughed out of the picture.

Enron, Watergate, CNN, The Immigration and Natrualization Service are all icons of political correctness gone crazy.

An American. What the Hell is an American?

[Happy2BMe]

"Dispite the authors willingness to engage the term, America is not an empire, nor empirialistic."

It may not be an empire in the truest sense of the word, but America's impact on the rest of the world has been as significant as any of the ancient empires in history.

Of interesting note is that the longest single-running period in history where global peace reigned was during the reign of the Roman Empire - 200 years of peace.

[SmithW]

Either globalization or catastrophe.

What sort of catastrophe, exactly?

Who, what, when, where, how, and why?

[Happy2BMe]

"Turns out the world is a less safe place without the CCCP, not safer."

I agree with this to a degree.

The nukes we were afraid of raining down on us in the form of ICBMs have now changed hands (to the Muslims) and are now in the form of small nuclear bombs and "dirty" bombs capable of rendering areas of detonation uninhabitable for hundreds of years.

Which was worse?

At least during the Cold War, we had MAD and containment.

Now with the Muslims seeking to use the United States as a catalyst to propogate their creed of hatred, we are not quite sure who the enemy is.

[shrinkermd]

"What sort of catastrophe, exactly? Answer: Nuclear exchange.

[SmithW]

Either globalization or nuclear exchange.

Wow. Well, no need to fill in the other blanks. I'm convinced.

[shrinkermd]

"Wow. Well, no need to fill in the other blanks. I'm convinced

Globalization has already happened. Try to buy a pair of shoes or a pair of pants made in USA. They even transcribe hospital dictation from India.

[whipitgood]

"What the hell is an American"?
I have heard it said that the truest test of a person's (or a society's) character is adversity. What is facing America now is adversity, nothing more. Would it be safe to call it a national test of character? You ask what an American is? It is those of us in this society who grasp that America is worth fighting for, and are willing to do so. When the current problems facing our nation are solved, or dealt with, Americans will be seen as the ones who made it happen. I just hope there are enough of us left to do what will be necessary.