Posted on 12/27/2002 10:10:58 AM PST by Chi-townChief
I don't see why there's so much trouble about poor Trent Lott. After all, the South won the Civil War--oops, the War Between the States--and they're entitled to enjoy their victory. It's their right to fly the Stars and Bars over the Georgia capital, to celebrate the ''Confederate Heritage,'' to speak at the racist, anti-Catholic Bob Jones University, to lecture to white supremacy groups, to venerate the Dixiecrat Party and its founder Strom Thurmond for his wisdom, to proclaim always their mantra of ''states' rights,'' to trim black voters off the polling lists.
Admittedly, racial segregation in the South isn't what it used to be. Blacks can ride anywhere on a bus that they want to, their kids can go to integrated schools, they can vote in elections, they can work at jobs formerly off-limits to them. They're still poor for the most part and not all that well-educated (in Mississippi no one is), but that's not the fault of white Southerners.
Does someone say that the Stars and Bars is the flag of a racist revolution to keep black people in slavery? Does someone argue that the ''Confederate Heritage'' is a heritage of racial oppression, rape and murder? The answer is simple: ''Hey, boys in blue, we whupped y'all fair and square. Y'all ain't nothing but bad losers.''
My ''damn Yankee'' prejudice is to say that ole Marse Abe made a mistake. He should have let the rebel states go. We didn't need them, and we'd be better off without them.
The South didn't win the war, you say? Who's running the country now? Texans (or pseudo-Texans) like Bush and Cheney and DeLay, and crackers like Trent Lott, and until recently carpetbaggers like Newt Gingrich. When was the last time a Yankee was elected president? In 1960, the only Northerner since Roosevelt. Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon don't count; Orange County is Confederate country.
Nixon was the one who had the brilliant idea of incorporating Strom's Dixiecrat Party into the GOP in his notorious ''Southern strategy.'' Most of the newspaper accounts of the turn of the Solid South from Democratic to Republican don't mention that the change was inspired by anger in the South at the Democratic support for civil rights and racial integration. The Democrats won the campaign but lost the war. Gettysburg was not the decisive battle of the war between the states. The 1968 and 1972 campaigns were. The ''reform'' wing of the Democratic Party threw out the unions and the Catholics and gave away the game to the Dixiecrat wing of the Republican Party. They've never figured out how to win against the descendants of Strom and Tricky Dicky.
I'm not saying that all Southerners are racist (there are a lot of racists in Yankee land too--most of them Republicans). Nor do I contend that all Republicans are racists. However, the current Republican near-majority has its origins in racism. Many of the present causes of Southern Republicans--the Stars and Bars, the Confederate Heritage, Bob Jones University--are clearly causes of the antebellum South.
I'm willing to accept the song ''Dixie,'' both because ole Marse Abe ordered it played for the big victory march in Washington when the war was over and because it was written by Bing Crosby, a notorious Yankee who never set foot in Dixie (actually by New Yorker Dan Emmet, whom Crosby portrayed in film).
However, if the Republicans really want to break free of the Old South and become once again the party of ole Marse Abe (which they clearly don't), then they have to do more than merely drop redneck bigots like Trent Lott. They must loudly disown Bob Jones University and the battle flag over the Georgia capital and the Confederate heritage, and Jeb Bush's elimination of black voters from Florida registration rolls.
I concede that the Dimmycrats (as Mr. Dooley called them) are not without faults of their own--most notably the anti-Catholicism that affects some of the leadership level, their enslavement to the teachers unions and their stand on some life issues. Yet, whatever their failings, they're not storming the Little Round Top at Gettysburg with the Stars and Bars waving and loud rebel yells.
History says that Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain and the 20th Maine triumphed in that skirmish. A look at the Beltway today makes me wonder if they really did.
Dunno, what?
LOL
Now that it's known that Apis was the supplier, your source took the liberty of adding Apis' name to the list of those that Austria asked for in the ultimatum. Sorry, that's a lie. Austria didn't name the actual supplier in their ultimatum. They didn't know who the supplier was.
Nope. Your own source acknowledged BY NAME that Austria demanded the surrender of at least two of the Terrorist ringleaders cited in my source. You were just too laughably illiterate even to notice that your source specifically confirmed the involvement of these two Black Hand Terrorists, whose surrender Austria requested and which Serbia REFUSED.
Your source:
My Source:
On 25th July, 1914, Nikola Pasic, the prime minister of Serbia, told the Austro-Hungarian government that he was unable to hand over these three men as it "would be a violation of Serbia's Constitution and criminal in law". Three days later Austro-Hungarian declared war on Serbia.
Voja Tankosic served in the Serbian Army during the First World War and was killed in action during the Serbian retreat in 1915.
Your own Source confirms BY NAME exactly what I have said. I'm rolling here.
The Austrian government requested that Serbia surrender KNOWN TERRORISTS and requested their surrender by name. The Prime Minister of Serbia who had been personally advised of the terrorist plot BEFORE the fact by Major Voja Tankosic (one of the Terrorist Leaders named by the Austrians!), REFUSED to surrender the Terrorist Leaders, and REFUSED to bring any charges against them -- only executing Dimitrijevic three years later in an arbitrary internal Purge, never bringing him to trial for his Terrorist attack on Austria.
That is exactly what you are arguing. And why do you argue this?
Because you support the harboring of Terrorists, that's why.
It was Viet Cong and their support that was bombed. LOL We bombed Viet Cong. You're an America basher citing other America bashers.
Oh, I'm sure that we hit some Viet Cong and their supporters. But, as Kissinger himself acknowledged, he committed "treasonable" War Crimes in doing so, precisely as I have maintained.
You're never going to be able to overcome Kissinger's own admission which confirms my citations from US AID officer Ronald Rickenbach, Colonel Sitton, and General Taylor, and whic proves my case beyond a shadow of a doubt -- thus proving that all your counter-arguments were (as you know) nothing but a bunch of fabricated Lies, which are contradicted by Kissinger's own admissions.
You're a liar by doing so. You're hoping to confuse people. Quit misqoting me you freaking liar. What I say about Germans is true.
EVERY insane racialist things that his own personal Racial Sociopathy is "true". But whether you like it or not, it's still a pack of insane racialist filth.
Let's examine again your Racialist statements, substituting another ethnic group in your comments about Germans:
They all wanted to conquer the world. The question is how you go about it. I'd rather have an English overlord rather than a Jewish overlord, if I was forced to choose. The English have done some nasty things, but there will be a record when you ruled most of the world for as long as they did. The Jews seem to immediately subject their conquests to immense cruelty. They don't have an empathy gene or something.
There've been some nasty things on the English record. But not like the immense cruelty and holocausts that the Jews would've inflicted had they been in England's place. Thank God for all the peoples of the world it was England.
They were lucky it was England that brought some form of civilization to them and not the Jews. I'm not trying to insult you, like I said I'm "part Jewish". But reality is reality and I know how cruel the Jews can be. It's well recorded. 238 posted on 12/29/2002 5:43 PM PST by #3Fan
I don't hate the Jews, I just think the Jews are devious. I'm "part Jewish" and I have my devious moments. LOL -- 265 posted on 12/29/2002 10:21 PM PST by #3Fan
Disgusting, racialist filth.
You're such an idiot. My "source" is the original document that was written by Austria when Austria didn't know who did it. You're trying to say that the document is proof that the other men listed were Serb suppliers. Apis was the supplier, not the men listed. Austria didn't name Apis in it's ultimatum because they didn't know who the supplier was. Later when it was found that Apis was the supplier, your source added Apis onto the list. Your source lied and you lied. None of the men listed was the Serb supplier. Therefore, no reason to extradite.
Your source: Wow, your source is wrong. You've done all this belly-aching for nothing. Here's the men that were requested quoted from the actual document: The plan of murdering Archduke Franz Ferdinand during his stay in Sarajevo was concocted in Belgrade by Gavrilo Princip, Nedeljko Cabrinovic, a certain Milan Ciganovic, and Trifko Grabesch with the assistance of Major Voija Takosic. They had the wrong guys. My source was right, they really didn't know who did it.
My opinion source said that Austria didn't know who did it and named the wrong organization. The reading of the ultimatum proves that is the case. They did not name Apis or Black Hand. They named another organization and other men that weren't the suppliers. You are an idiot.
My Source: Several members of the Black Hand group interrogated by the Austrian authorities claimed that three men from Serbia, Tankosic, Dragutin Dimitrijevic and Milan Ciganovic had organised the plot. On 25th July, 1914, the Austro-Hungarian government demanded that the Serbian government arrest the men and send them to face trial in Vienna. On 25th July, 1914, Nikola Pasic, the prime minister of Serbia, told the Austro-Hungarian government that he was unable to hand over these three men as it "would be a violation of Serbia's Constitution and criminal in law". Three days later Austro-Hungarian declared war on Serbia.
This is a lie, Austria did not request Dagutin Apis.
Voja Tankosic served in the Serbian Army during the First World War and was killed in action during the Serbian retreat in 1915. Your own Source confirms BY NAME exactly what I have said. I'm rolling here.
Rollin a doob, maybe. My "source" in this case is the original document. Dragutin Apis is not mentioned in the ultimatum like your source said he was. Your source lied and you continue to lie.
The Austrian government requested that Serbia surrender KNOWN TERRORISTS and requested their surrender by name. The Prime Minister of Serbia who had been personally advised of the terrorist plot BEFORE the fact by Major Voja Tankosic (one of the Terrorist Leaders named by the Austrians!), REFUSED to surrender the Terrorist Leaders, and REFUSED to bring any charges against them -- only executing Dimitrijevic three years later in an arbitrary internal Purge, never bringing him to trial for his Terrorist attack on Austria.
Tankosic got word there may be trouble, but he wasn't in on the killing. He told the Serb government that there may be trouble. Vasic didn't believe him. My opinion source and even your source says no one in the Serbian government was in on the murders. Your source:
11) The Austro-Hungarian government sent Friedrich von Wiesner to Sarajevo to investigate the Serbian government's role in the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand (13th July, 1914)
There is nothing to show the complicity of the Serbian government in the direction of the assassination or its preparations or in supplying of weapons. On the contrary, there is evidence that would appear to show complicity is out of the question.
If the intentions (war with Serbia) prevailing at my departure still exist, demands might be extended for: (1) Suppression of complicity of Serbian government government officials in smuggling persons and material across the frontier. (2) Dismissal of Serbian frontier officers at Sabac and Loznica for smuggling persons and materials across the frontier. (3) Criminal proceedings against Ciganovic and Tankosic.
(12) After the First World War Field Marshal Karl von von Bulow wrote in his memoirs about the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
Although the horrible murder was the work of a Serbian society with branches all over the country, many details prove that the Serbian government had neither instigated or desired it. The Serbs were exhausted by two wars. The most hot-headed among them might have paused at the thought of war with Austria-Hungary, so overwhelmingly superior.
You're lying through your teeth.
You're arguing that if, when the USA demanded the surrender of Osama Bin Laden for the 9-11 atrocity, then the Taliban had every moral right to say "No, we know for a fact that Bin Laden plotted this attack, but we REFUSE to hand Bin Laden over and we REFUSE to bring any charges against him at this time. Maybe we will trump up some unrelated charges against him in three years or so, but we will NEVER charge him with any crime related to his killing of Americans" and the USA should have just bent over and taken it. That is exactly what you are arguing. And why do you argue this?
We know bin Laden is guilty. Austria had the wrong organization and the wrong supplier.
Because you support the harboring of Terrorists, that's why. Oh, I'm sure that we hit some Viet Cong and their supporters. But, as Kissinger himself acknowledged, he committed "treasonable" War Crimes in doing so, precisely as I have maintained.
Is this the same source that says a grass hut village was carpet-bombed 6 times a day by B-52s for 3 months? LOL
You're never going to be able to overcome Kissinger's own admission which confirms my citations from US AID officer Ronald Rickenbach, Colonel Sitton, and General Taylor, and whic proves my case beyond a shadow of a doubt -- thus proving that all your counter-arguments were (as you know) nothing but a bunch of fabricated Lies, which are contradicted by Kissinger's own admissions.
We bombed Viet Cong and their support.
EVERY insane racialist things that his own personal Racial Sociopathy is "true". But whether you like it or not, it's still a pack of insane racialist filth.
Post to von whatshisname and tell him the same thing. He's been much harder on the British athan I've been on the Germans. You're a cherry-picker.
Let's examine again your Racialist statements, substituting another ethnic group in your comments about Germans:
You continue to misquote me which proves you are a liar. I said "Germans", not "Jews". The truth isn't good enough for you, you have to make things up and change my quotes to try to make a point.
Disgusting, racialist filth.
You're a disgusting liar that can't tell the truth to make a point. I said "Germans", not "Jews".
Your main lies:
Apis was named in the ultimatum. (He wasn't)
Grass huts can withstand carpet bombing 6 times a day for 3 months (They can't. LOL)
You misquote me intentionally.
You say that anyone mentioned in the ultimatum is a "known terrorist". (They are not.)
You're own ally in this debate says you were wrong about the guilt of Red China in some petty point you were making.
Quite a record for one thread.
Ooops... you're lying.
Tell you what... I'll grant the point on Dragutin Dimitrijevic ("Colonel Apis"). He was, in fact, one of the Plotters, as he admitted; but I'll drop that point.
So, let's play two outta three. You lose.
Your own source confirm BY NAME at least two of the Terrorist Plotters:
"The plan of murdering Archduke Franz Ferdinand during his stay in Sarajevo was concocted in Belgrade by.... a certain Milan Ciganovic, and... Major Voija Takosic." (263 posted on 12/29/2002 10:15 PM PST by #3Fan)
This, both your source and mine confirm the fact that Takosic and Ciganovic were Black Hand Terrorists by whom "The plan of murdering Archduke Franz Ferdinand during his stay in Sarajevo was concocted in Belgrade" (263 posted on 12/29/2002 10:15 PM PST by #3Fan)
The surrender of BOTH these Serbian "Black Hand" Terrorist ring-leaders was demanded by Austria. The Facts of History is that neither of them was ever surrendered to Austria or brought to trial in Serbia for their Terrorism.
Two outta three -- both Tankosic and Ciganovic were Black Hand terrorist ringleaders, and employees of the Serbian Government. "The plan of murdering Archduke Franz Ferdinand during his stay in Sarajevo was concocted in Belgrade by.... a certain Milan Ciganovic, and... Major Voija Takosic." (263 posted on 12/29/2002 10:15 PM PST by #3Fan)
We bombed Viet Cong and their support.
And civilians.
In March l973, the U.S. carpet bombardment spread across the whole country. Around Phnom Penh alone, 3,000 civilians were killed in three weeks. UPI reported: "Refugees swarming into the capital from target areas report dozens of villages... have been destroyed and as much as half their population killed or maimed in the current bombing raids."
The bombardment intensified to 3,600 tons per day. William Shawcross reported in Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia, that the "wholesale carnage" shocked the chief of the political section in the U.S. Embassy, William Harben. One night, he said, "a mass of peasants" went out on a funeral procession and "walked straight into" a bombing raid. "Hundreds were slaughtered."
Although the U.S. military informed Kissinger that there would be substantial Cambodian civilian casualties, he told the Senate that Cambodian areas selected for bombing were "unpopulated," a blatant lie. Secretary of State William Rogers and Secretary of Defence Melvin Laird were highly skeptical about widening the war but Kissinger actually lobbied for the invasion of Cambodia and usurped the chain of command to take personal charge of the bombing. He beamed when giving Nixon reports on the bombing of Cambodia and seemed to be having "fun" with it according to the President.
General Alexander Haig and his deputy Colonel Ray Sitton mapped the secret bombing of Cambodia. Kissinger oversaw this operation personally. When The New York Times decided to print the Pentagon Papers, June 13, 1971, a telephone conversation between these two men became known years later. "It is treasonable, there is no question. It's action-able, I am absolutely sure this violates all sorts of security laws," Kissinger told his boss.
You continue to misquote me which proves you are a liar. I said "Germans", not "Jews". The truth isn't good enough for you, you have to make things up and change my quotes to try to make a point.
Your quotes would be every bit as Racist if they had been about Jews, as my illustration demonstrates. Let's examine again your Racialist statements, substituting another ethnic group in your comments about Germans:
They all wanted to conquer the world. The question is how you go about it. I'd rather have an English overlord rather than a Jewish overlord, if I was forced to choose. The English have done some nasty things, but there will be a record when you ruled most of the world for as long as they did. The Jews seem to immediately subject their conquests to immense cruelty. They don't have an empathy gene or something.
There've been some nasty things on the English record. But not like the immense cruelty and holocausts that the Jews would've inflicted had they been in England's place. Thank God for all the peoples of the world it was England.
They were lucky it was England that brought some form of civilization to them and not the Jews. I'm not trying to insult you, like I said I'm "part Jewish". But reality is reality and I know how cruel the Jews can be. It's well recorded. 238 posted on 12/29/2002 5:43 PM PST by #3Fan
I don't hate the Jews, I just think the Jews are devious. I'm "part Jewish" and I have my devious moments. LOL -- 265 posted on 12/29/2002 10:21 PM PST by #3Fan
This has been your main theme for this whole thread. Your source lied and you lied over and over and over. You need to check your sources before you go falsely accusing others. You have a bad habit of being wrong and then finger-pointing when someone points out your mistakes. You call me every name in the book for 250 posts and then finally admit you were wrong the whole time.
So, let's play two outta three. You lose. Your own source confirm BY NAME at least two of the Terrorist Plotters:
Show me your evidence that the other men named were plotters. The only Serb ever found to aid the assassins was Apis when he confessed. You're using Austria's ultimatum as proof of guilt. How can you do that when they didn't even name Black Hand or Apis?
The plan of murdering Archduke Franz Ferdinand during his stay in Sarajevo was concocted in Belgrade by Gavrilo Princip, Nedeljko Cabrinovic, a certain Milan Ciganovic, and Trifko Grabesch with the assistance of Major Voija Takosic. 263 posted on 12/29/2002 10:15 PM PST by #3Fan "The plan of murdering Archduke Franz Ferdinand during his stay in Sarajevo was concocted in Belgrade by.... a certain Milan Ciganovic, and... Major Voija Takosic." (263 posted on 12/29/2002 10:15 PM PST by #3Fan)
This is my quote of Austria's ultimatum. If they didn't name Apis or Black Hand, what makes you think they were right about these other Serbs? You're using Austria's ultimatum as proof of guilt.
This, both your source and mine confirm the fact that Takosic and Ciganovic were Black Hand Terrorists by whom "The plan of murdering Archduke Franz Ferdinand during his stay in Sarajevo was concocted in Belgrade" (263 posted on 12/29/2002 10:15 PM PST by #3Fan)
You're lying again. Austria had the wrong organization named. They never named Black Hand. If they didn't even have the right organization, how could they be right about the Serb plotters?
The surrender of BOTH these Serbian "Black Hand" Terrorist ring-leaders was demanded by Austria. The Facts of History is that neither of them was ever surrendered to Austria or brought to trial in Serbia for their Terrorism.
Because Austria had the wrong organization named. They never named Black Hand. How could they have the men right if they were looking at the wrong organization?
Voja Tankosic served in the Serbian Army during the First World War and was killed in action during the Serbian retreat in 1915. The Serbian government sent Ciganovic to the United States for the duration of the First World War. He returned in 1919 and received a small grant of land from the government, married and settled down. Milan Ciganovic died in 1927. Two outta three -- both Tankosic and Ciganovic were Black Hand terrorist ringleaders, and employees of the Serbian Government. "The plan of murdering Archduke Franz Ferdinand during his stay in Sarajevo was concocted in Belgrade by.... a certain Milan Ciganovic, and... Major Voija Takosic." (263 posted on 12/29/2002 10:15 PM PST by #3Fan)
That's a quote of the Austrian ultimatum, not proof of guilt of the person's named. If hope you not a court judge! LOL Your threshhold of proof of guilt is as low as it goes. Someone makes an accusation and you hold up the accusation as proof of guilt.
WWI started when Russia decided to protect the Serbs from the consequences of harboring terrorist groups. 140 posted on 12/28/2002 7:30 PM PST by weikel We bombed Viet Cong and their support. And civilians.
They were Viet Cong support.
The civilian toll was massive. In l970 a U.S. aerial and tank attack in Kompong Cham province took 200 lives. In 1971, the town of Angkor Borei was heavily bombed, ending up burnt and levelled by B-52's and T-28's. Whole families were trapped in trenches they had dug underneath their homes. One hundred people were killed, and 200 houses destroyed. In March l973, the U.S. carpet bombardment spread across the whole country. Around Phnom Penh alone, 3,000 civilians were killed in three weeks. UPI reported: "Refugees swarming into the capital from target areas report dozens of villages... have been destroyed and as much as half their population killed or maimed in the current bombing raids." The bombardment intensified to 3,600 tons per day. William Shawcross reported in Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia, that the "wholesale carnage" shocked the chief of the political section in the U.S. Embassy, William Harben. One night, he said, "a mass of peasants" went out on a funeral procession and "walked straight into" a bombing raid. "Hundreds were slaughtered." Although the U.S. military informed Kissinger that there would be substantial Cambodian civilian casualties, he told the Senate that Cambodian areas selected for bombing were "unpopulated," a blatant lie. Secretary of State William Rogers and Secretary of Defence Melvin Laird were highly skeptical about widening the war but Kissinger actually lobbied for the invasion of Cambodia and usurped the chain of command to take personal charge of the bombing. He beamed when giving Nixon reports on the bombing of Cambodia and seemed to be having "fun" with it according to the President. General Alexander Haig and his deputy Colonel Ray Sitton mapped the secret bombing of Cambodia. Kissinger oversaw this operation personally. When The New York Times decided to print the Pentagon Papers, June 13, 1971, a telephone conversation between these two men became known years later. "It is treasonable, there is no question. It's action-able, I am absolutely sure this violates all sorts of security laws," Kissinger told his boss. "It is treasonable, there is no question. I am absolutely sure this violates all sorts of security laws." -- Henry Kissinger.
We inflicted a lot of causualties on Germany and Japan's support structure also. You do remember the firebombing and nuclear bombing, don't you? That's war.
Your quotes would be every bit as Racist if they had been about Jews, as my illustration demonstrates. Let's examine again your Racialist statements, substituting another ethnic group in your comments about Germans:
You continue to deliberately misquote me trying to sow confusion to anyone who may be skimming through that I have lied about the Jews. My quotes were about "Germans", not "Jews". This proves you are a liar and cannot rely on the truth to make a point, you have to make things up and sow confusion.
Disgusting, racialist filth.
You're a disgusting liar. I said "Germans", not "Jews".
Your malfeasants on your last post alone:
You hold Austria's ultimatum as proof that the Serb suppliers named are guilty of murder. (Good thing you're not a judge, even your source says that the Serbian government was not involved)
You deliberately misquote me proving you are a liar.
You lie by omission that it was the Viet Cong and their support that we bombed in Cambodia proving you are an America-basher
Your source lied about Apis being named in the ultimatum but you continue to use their words as proof of guilt of other Serbs. (You need to look for a more truthful source)
You accuse the other Serbs accused by Austria as being suppliers as being part of Black Hand. (Even Austria didn't say they were part of Black Hand, they had a different organization named)
No, we should ignore the verses because they are inoperative. Even if there were such a thing as racial moral characteristics, these would have been diluted to the point of irrelevance in the European nations of 1914. There were dozens, perhaps hundreds, of distinct tribes originally inhabiting the areas that had became Germany and Austria-Hungary by 1914.
It is impossible to attribute "racial" characteristics that are common to everyone in the Germanic Sprachraum. There are significant differences in the customs and worldviews of rural Bavarians, East Prussians, Saxons, and Rhinelanders but these characteristics are cultural rather than racial, and it is impossible to arrive at a least common cultural denominator because the historical record does not support it.
You claim that the Germans are proficient in war. This is demonstrably untrue. Some Germans were, but MOST Germans were not, until Prussian training and military culture were exported throughout Germany after the 1870's. If you will examine the military history of Germany from the Renaissance through the Napoleonic period, you will see that German troops, except for Prussians and Saxons, were generally not highly respected. The French, Swedish and Spanish were all considered more formidable.
And what are the Prussians, other than a racial mixture of Poles, Saxons, Wends, Sorbs, and the assorted Rhenish descendants of the Teutonic knights? Even the Hohenzollerns are a Swabian family. And this Brandenburg-Prussia was a weak backwater until the reforms begun by the Great Elector and completed by Friedrich WIlhelm I.
By 1914, race had become a meaningless category in Germany, which is why German Jews were indistinguishable in terms of philosophy, culture, and even appearance from German Gentiles.
Au contraire. Dragutin Dimitrijevic was one of the chief Black Hand terrorist plotters -- he admitted it himself. And the Prime Minister was advised of the Black Hand terrorist plot, before the fact, by Tankosic himself. As such, Serbia did in fact have a moral obligation under articles 4 and 6 of the Austrian ultimatum to take action against Black Hand Terrorists like Dimitrijevic.... but no action against Dimitrijevic for his terrorist crimes against Austria was EVER taken.
My contentions about Dimitrijevic are all correct. I'm just willing to drop the point because he was not listed by name (as were Tankosic and Ciganovic) -- even though he still would have fallen under the terms of articles 4 and 6, whether specifically named or not.
As to Tankosic and Ciganovic, the terrorist murderers themselves implicated them as Black Hand terrorist ringleaders, and the Prime Minister of Serbia was informed of the terrorist plot before the fact by Tankosic himself (gee, do you suppose he was just guessin'?).
Thus, both your source and mine confirm the fact that Takosic and Ciganovic were Black Hand Terrorists by whom "The plan of murdering Archduke Franz Ferdinand during his stay in Sarajevo was concocted in Belgrade" (263 posted on 12/29/2002 10:15 PM PST by #3Fan)
The surrender of BOTH these Serbian "Black Hand" Terrorist ring-leaders was demanded by Austria. The Facts of History is that neither of them was ever surrendered to Austria or brought to trial in Serbia for their Terrorism.
Two outta Three (even if I let you "have" the terrorist Dimitrijevic, who was not specifically named). You lose.
They were Viet Cong support.
Alright, bucko...
Let's have your specific proof that EVERY single one of these Cambodians who was listed as "civilian casualties" was a Viet Cong supporter. Otherwise, you're just fabricating lies.
Let's have your specific proof that EVERY single one of these Cambodians whom the US Embassy reported as "civilian peasants" was a Viet Cong supporter. Otherwise, you're just fabricating lies.
Let's have your specific proof that EVERY single one of these Cambodian tribal villagers whom a US agent in-country specifically calls "civilians" and specifically NOT "VC guerrillas" or "VC supporters", was in fact a Viet Cong supporter. Otherwise, you're just fabricating lies.
The fact is, your entire case in built on Lies... falsehoods which Kissinger himself admitted were Lies.
Alexander Haig and his deputy Colonel Ray Sitton mapped the secret bombing of Cambodia. Kissinger oversaw this operation personally. When The New York Times decided to print the Pentagon Papers, June 13, 1971, a telephone conversation between these two men became known years later. "It is treasonable, there is no question. It's action-able, I am absolutely sure this violates all sorts of security laws," Kissinger told his boss.
You continue to deliberately misquote me trying to sow confusion to anyone who may be skimming through that I have lied about the Jews. My quotes were about "Germans", not "Jews".
Right. Your comments about Germans were Racist filth. They would have been just as Racist if you HAD been talking about Jews. This is proven by my demonstration.
Let's examine again your Racialist statements, substituting another ethnic group in your comments about Germans:
They all wanted to conquer the world. The question is how you go about it. I'd rather have an English overlord rather than a Jewish overlord, if I was forced to choose. The English have done some nasty things, but there will be a record when you ruled most of the world for as long as they did. The Jews seem to immediately subject their conquests to immense cruelty. They don't have an empathy gene or something.
There've been some nasty things on the English record. But not like the immense cruelty and holocausts that the Jews would've inflicted had they been in England's place. Thank God for all the peoples of the world it was England.
They were lucky it was England that brought some form of civilization to them and not the Jews. I'm not trying to insult you, like I said I'm "part Jewish". But reality is reality and I know how cruel the Jews can be. It's well recorded. 238 posted on 12/29/2002 5:43 PM PST by #3Fan
I don't hate the Jews, I just think the Jews are devious. I'm "part Jewish" and I have my devious moments. LOL -- 265 posted on 12/29/2002 10:21 PM PST by #3Fan
See? Your comments would be every bit as Racist if they were about Jews. It's plain as sunshine on a summer day.
Your comments are insane, racialist filth.... just as I have said all along.
Not so. Genesis clearly says that these characteristics would be intact in the last days:
Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you [that] which shall befall you in the last days.
This is the verse that precedes the describing of the 12 tribes and their characteristics. God has the ability to keep His people congregated.
It is impossible to attribute "racial" characteristics that are common to everyone in the Germanic Sprachraum. There are significant differences in the customs and worldviews of rural Bavarians, East Prussians, Saxons, and Rhinelanders but these characteristics are cultural rather than racial, and it is impossible to arrive at a least common cultural denominator because the historical record does not support it.
I agree that there are many smaller groups. These smaller groups congregate into the the main groups that have the characteristics that are prophesied in the bible.
You claim that the Germans are proficient in war. This is demonstrably untrue. Some Germans were, but MOST Germans were not, until Prussian training and military culture were exported throughout Germany after the 1870's.
Not so. Skull studies show that the roundheads that now dominate Germany wiped out and ran out the longheads that were in the lowlands. And of course the Assyrians were renowned as the best warriors. Assyrians/Germans have never been taken captive (unless you would call the events of 1945 to 1989 a form of captivity), a tribute to their proficiencies in war and war machines throughout the last 4000 years. Assyrians/Germans are efficient, mechanically inclined, and obedient to their leaders, perfect specimens for armies.
If you will examine the military history of Germany from the Renaissance through the Napoleonic period, you will see that German troops, except for Prussians and Saxons, were generally not highly respected. The French, Swedish and Spanish were all considered more formidable.
Yeah, different peoples have their ups and downs at different times. Over the long haul though, Germans/Assyrians earned their right to be feared, which is where they derive their names. Heth (Hessians) means "fear", German means "war man".
And what are the Prussians, other than a racial mixture of Poles, Saxons, Wends, Sorbs, and the assorted Rhenish descendants of the Teutonic knights? Even the Hohenzollerns are a Swabian family. And this Brandenburg-Prussia was a weak backwater until the reforms begun by the Great Elector and completed by Friedrich WIlhelm I.
Skull studies show that the roundheads now dominate Germany whereas before the Industrial Revolution there was more of a mixture on longheads and roundheads. Linguistic names can mislead, genetics do not.
By 1914, race had become a meaningless category in Germany, which is why German Jews were indistinguishable in terms of philosophy, culture, and even appearance from German Gentiles.
Sure we will look a lot alike, true Jews, Americans, British, and Germans are part of the same family way up there. Asshur was the brother of Jacob-Israel's close paternal ancestor Arphaxad. Heth was a second cousin of Arphaxad. (Heth and Asshur being the residents of the ancient Assyrian empire) The skull change is the best way to tell descendents of Asshur and Heth from the descendents of Jacob-Israel. True Jews are brothers of the British and Americans and are a different race than true Germans, having split at Shem and Ham, Asshur and Arphaxad. There are Jews that call themselves Jews and do lie though. John's Revelation of the teachings of Jesus:
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
So there are two races of Jews. Most Jews who call themselves Jews are true Jews, but there are those that lie when they call themselves Jews. Why would they lie about that? Because it is the Jews that hold the sceptor, the kingship since David. They wanted to get in on that action. They are the descendents of Cain.
"Descendants of Cain"?
You're speaking figuratively, I should hope.
Your source lied when it said the Austrians asked for Apis. You repeated this lie for 250 posts until I finally got you to admit that Apis was never mentioned by the Austrians. You continue to lie by repeating your source's lie that the Austrians asked for Black Hand. They did not. They had the wrong organization named. They named Narodna Odbrana as the organization that did the murders. It was not this organization, it was Black Hand. Even your own source goes on to say that the Serbian government did not conspire to do the murders. It was Apis and the Bosnian assassins. The Serbian president alerted the Serbian ambassador in Austria that there may be trouble. The ambassador told the Austrians a visit was too provocative. However the Austrians didn't interfere with his trip.
My contentions about Dimitrijevic are all correct. I'm just willing to drop the point because he was not listed by name (as were Tankosic and Ciganovic) -- even though he still would have fallen under the terms of articles 4 and 6, whether specifically named or not.
.You use the ultimatum to prove that Tankosic was a member of Black Hand when the ultimatum doesn't even mention Black Hand. They had the wrong organization and therefore the wrong guy.
As to Tankosic and Ciganovic, the terrorist murderers themselves implicated them as Black Hand terrorist ringleaders, and the Prime Minister of Serbia was informed of the terrorist plot before the fact by Tankosic himself (gee, do you suppose he was just guessin'?).
The Austrians never named Black Hand as the guilty organization. They had the wrong organization and therefore the wrong guy.
Thus, both your source and mine confirm the fact that Takosic and Ciganovic were Black Hand Terrorists by whom "The plan of murdering Archduke Franz Ferdinand during his stay in Sarajevo was concocted in Belgrade" (263 posted on 12/29/2002 10:15 PM PST by #3Fan)
I quoted the Austrian ultimatum. The Austrian ultimatum is not proof of guilt. I'm glad you're not a judge.
The surrender of BOTH these Serbian "Black Hand" Terrorist ring-leaders was demanded by Austria. The Facts of History is that neither of them was ever surrendered to Austria or brought to trial in Serbia for their Terrorism.
How do you know they were Black Hand?
Two outta Three (even if I let you "have" the terrorist Dimitrijevic, who was not specifically named). You lose.
You're still using the ultimatum as proof of guilt. How can you use the ultimatum as proof of guilt when they had the wrong organization named? Do accusations = guilt in your world?
WWI started when Russia decided to protect the Serbs from the consequences of harboring terrorist groups. 140 posted on 12/28/2002 7:30 PM PST by weikel They were Viet Cong support. Alright, bucko... In March l973, the U.S. carpet bombardment spread across the whole country. Around Phnom Penh alone, 3,000 civilians were killed in three weeks. UPI reported: "Refugees swarming into the capital from target areas report dozens of villages... have been destroyed and as much as half their population killed or maimed in the current bombing raids." Let's have your specific proof that EVERY single one of these Cambodians who was listed as "civilian casualties" was a Viet Cong supporter. Otherwise, you're just fabricating lies.
Let's have proof that every single one of the residents of Hiroshima was a supporter of the Japanese military.
The bombardment intensified to 3,600 tons per day. William Shawcross reported in Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia, that the "wholesale carnage" shocked the chief of the political section in the U.S. Embassy, William Harben. One night, he said, "a mass of peasants" went out on a funeral procession and "walked straight into" a bombing raid. "Hundreds were slaughtered." Let's have your specific proof that EVERY single one of these Cambodians whom the US Embassy reported as "civilian peasants" was a Viet Cong supporter. Otherwise, you're just fabricating lies. On 3 August 1973, U.S. aircraft bombed the hill village of Plei Loh, home of Montagnard tribal people. An American agent reported after a follow-up mission that "the village was totally destroyed, with 28 civilians and five VC guerrillas killed." Let's have your specific proof that EVERY single one of these Cambodian tribal villagers whom a US agent in-country specifically calls "civilians" and specifically NOT "VC guerrillas" or "VC supporters", was in fact a Viet Cong supporter. Otherwise, you're just fabricating lies. The fact is, your entire case in built on Lies... falsehoods which Kissinger himself admitted were Lies. Alexander Haig and his deputy Colonel Ray Sitton mapped the secret bombing of Cambodia. Kissinger oversaw this operation personally. When The New York Times decided to print the Pentagon Papers, June 13, 1971, a telephone conversation between these two men became known years later. "It is treasonable, there is no question. It's action-able, I am absolutely sure this violates all sorts of security laws," Kissinger told his boss.
We bombed the Viet Cong and their support in Cambodia.
Right. Your comments about Germans were Racist filth. They would have been just as Racist if you HAD been talking about Jews. This is proven by my demonstration. Let's examine again your Racialist statements, substituting another ethnic group in your comments about Germans:
You deliberate misquote me proving you are a liar meaning to confuse people. You try to sow confusion by making up quotes and attributing them to me. I said "Germans", not "Jews". For you to change my quotes prove that you can't win this argument. Truth is not on your side and you tell lies in every post.
See? Your comments would be every bit as Racist if they were about Jews. It's plain as sunshine on a summer day. Your comments are insane, racialist filth.... just as I have said all along.
You are a filthy liar. You deliberately misquote me. You can't rely on truth to make a point, you have to make things up and proclaim that I said them. I said "Germans", not "Jews".
Malfeasants in your last post:
You claim that the Austrian ultimatum says that Tankosic is a member of Black Hand. (The ultimatum never mentions Black Hand, they thought it was Narodna Odbrana that committed the murders)
You deliberately make up quotes and attribute them to me to try to sow confusion that I'm anti-Jewish
Your demand of perfection of American bombers in Cambodia proves you are a "Blame America First"er
You use baseless accusations as proof of guilt.
Cain went east, married, and built a city. You don't think he has descendants?
The terrorists themselves implicated Tankosic and Ciganovic as the Terrorist ring-leaders (and Tankosic himself personally informed the Serbian Prime Minister of the plot BEFORE the fact. Gee, was he just guessin'?).
The surrender of BOTH these Serbian "Black Hand" Terrorist ring-leaders was demanded by Austria. The Fact of History is that neither of them was ever surrendered to Austria or brought to trial in Serbia for their Terrorism.
Let's have proof that every single one of the residents of Hiroshima was a supporter of the Japanese military.
We were at war against the Nation of Japan.
We were not at war against the Nation of Cambodia.
So...
The bombardment intensified to 3,600 tons per day. William Shawcross reported in Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia, that the "wholesale carnage" shocked the chief of the political section in the U.S. Embassy, William Harben. One night, he said, "a mass of peasants" went out on a funeral procession and "walked straight into" a bombing raid. "Hundreds were slaughtered."
On 3 August 1973, U.S. aircraft bombed the hill village of Plei Loh, home of Montagnard tribal people. An American agent reported after a follow-up mission that "the village was totally destroyed, with 28 civilians and five VC guerrillas killed."
Let's have your specific proof that EVERY single one of these Cambodian tribal villagers whom US agents in-country and the US Embassy in-country specifically call "civilian peasants" and specifically NOT "VC guerrillas" or "VC supporters", was in fact a Viet Cong supporter.
Otherwise, you're just fabricating lies, and you know it.
You deliberate misquote me proving you are a liar meaning to confuse people. You try to sow confusion by making up quotes and attributing them to me. I said "Germans", not "Jews". For you to change my quotes prove that you can't win this argument. Truth is not on your side and you tell lies in every post.
Your comments would have been every bit as Racist if they had been about Jews, and you know it.
Thus, I am not a Liar; and you are an insane racialist.
Cain went east, married, and built a city. You don't think he has descendants? 295 posted on 12/31/2002 8:53 AM PST by #3Fan
I was afraid that you were serious.
Two words: "Noah. Flood".
No "Descendants of Cain" remained alive.
As I said, your racialist insanity hopelessly damages your ability to think.
This story doesn't wash. Austria was after the wrong organization so either the assassins lied about who supplied them or they didn't say anything and the Austrians just guessed and guessed wrong.
The surrender of BOTH these Serbian "Black Hand" Terrorist ring-leaders was demanded by Austria. The Fact of History is that neither of them was ever surrendered to Austria or brought to trial in Serbia for their Terrorism.
Even your source admits that the Serbian government was not in on the murders so you're just continuing to judge these people guilty according to accusations, not evidence. I'm glad you're not a judge.
WWI started when Russia decided to protect the Serbs from the consequences of harboring terrorist groups. 140 posted on 12/28/2002 7:30 PM PST by weikel Let's have proof that every single one of the residents of Hiroshima was a supporter of the Japanese military. We were at war against the Nation of Japan. We were not at war against the Nation of Cambodia.
We were at war with the Viet Cong and their support.
So... In March l973, the U.S. carpet bombardment spread across the whole country. Around Phnom Penh alone, 3,000 civilians were killed in three weeks. UPI reported: "Refugees swarming into the capital from target areas report dozens of villages... have been destroyed and as much as half their population killed or maimed in the current bombing raids." The bombardment intensified to 3,600 tons per day. William Shawcross reported in Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia, that the "wholesale carnage" shocked the chief of the political section in the U.S. Embassy, William Harben. One night, he said, "a mass of peasants" went out on a funeral procession and "walked straight into" a bombing raid. "Hundreds were slaughtered." On 3 August 1973, U.S. aircraft bombed the hill village of Plei Loh, home of Montagnard tribal people. An American agent reported after a follow-up mission that "the village was totally destroyed, with 28 civilians and five VC guerrillas killed." Let's have your specific proof that EVERY single one of these Cambodian tribal villagers whom US agents in-country and the US Embassy in-country specifically call "civilian peasants" and specifically NOT "VC guerrillas" or "VC supporters", was in fact a Viet Cong supporter. Otherwise, you're just fabricating lies, and you know it. Alexander Haig and his deputy Colonel Ray Sitton mapped the secret bombing of Cambodia. Kissinger oversaw this operation personally. When The New York Times decided to print the Pentagon Papers, June 13, 1971, a telephone conversation between these two men became known years later. "It is treasonable, there is no question. It's action-able, I am absolutely sure this violates all sorts of security laws," Kissinger told his boss.
We bombed the Viet Cong and their support.
Your comments would have been every bit as Racist if they had been about Jews, and you know it. Thus, I am not a Liar; and you are an insane racialist.
You are a liar. You swore up and down that Austria asked for Apis when the ultimatum made no mention of Apis and you knew it. You are a liar by misquoting me deliberately.
Cain went east, married, and built a city. You don't think he has descendants? 295 posted on 12/31/2002 8:53 AM PST by #3Fan I was afraid that you were serious. Two words: "Noah. Flood". No "Descendants of Cain" remained alive.
You are biblically illiterate. A Kenite is a descendant of Cain. These events occured after the flood:
Num 24:22 Nevertheless the Kenite shall be wasted, until Asshur shall carry thee away captive.
Jdg 1:16 And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which [lieth] in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.
Jdg 4:11 Now Heber the Kenite, [which was] of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which [is] by Kedesh.
Jdg 4:17 Howbeit Sisera fled away on his feet to the tent of Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite: for [there was] peace between Jabin the king of Hazor and the house of Heber the Kenite.
Jdg 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
Only 8 Adamic people survived the flood. Every race had survivors in the flood, genetics prove that the races go back to a common point far back in time, not single-digit thousands of years ago when the flood occurred. Cain, although the son of Eve, was not a son of Adam, so he was not Adamic. Abel, Seth, and Adam's other sons were Adamic though, of course being the genetic sons of Adam. Are you now getting the idea of what one form of the forbidden fruit was that Eve partook of?
As I said, your racialist insanity hopelessly damages your ability to think.
I'm not the one that believes a grass hut village can survive B-52 carpet-bombing 3 to 6 times a day for three months, you are.
Egads. You're certifiably insane.
I'm sorry, #3Fan, I have to break off the discussion now. Thanks in part to this thread, I'm afraid that I drastically exceeded my quota on arguments with mad-men in 2002. I don't want to get too early a start on it in 2003.
On the bright side, it was pleasant corresponding with you, von_Berlichingen. As far as Trad-Caths go, I occasionally enjoy listening to the apologetics of Gerry Matatics. I think he's very, very good at what he does (regardless of the criticisms of his pro-VaticanII detractors), and so cutting my teeth on his arguments is a pleasant challenge.
Best regards, OP
Yessiree, interesting.
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