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To: inquest
It was "essentially" a pro-3rd party argument. Now I'm sure the many libertarians on this forum would be flattered to know that you consider the Libertarian Party the only third party that could ever be worthy of consideration, but it really isn't.

I think it went beyond that to bear a striking resemblance to a libertarian argument, but I am willing to drop the point ;)

I don't think anyone on this thread believes that the Almighty Constitution (perhaps in conjunction with Univ*) will rise up and smite down any heathen government officials that don't abide by its Commandments. What I'm interested in knowing is if it matters to you whether their actions violate the Constitution.

It matters to me, but that's almost irrelevant. If the rest of the nation feels that some official action or program doesn't violate the Constitution, I have little choice but to abide by that while working to change their minds, or to vote with my feet and leave. It's not enough for you and I to want change, if we're the only ones.

Recent events have conspired to put conservatives in the driver's seat momentarily, although some here are clearly unsatisfied with the caliber of conservatives that are gipping the wheel. Even so, that's merely a temporary correction, and one subject to being destroyed as soon as the wheels of government start turning in the opposite direction. The Constitution can't end searches in airports, or abortions, or drug seizures, or government listening to your phone calls. Only we can do that. And the only way we can do that is to change the culture; else, we're simply imposing solutions on a people that don't really believe in them. And even if you ram through some change, ending some thing or starting another because you believe it is unconstitutional or constitutional, it will last precisely as long as it takes the left to regain the levers of power, because the people don't believe in what you are doing.

Congress and the courts and the President can implement every single piece of a conservative agenda now - they have the power. But unless the people believe those changes are the right thing to do, it will never last, and they will strike back tenfold in revenge. Government cannot lead the people anywhere they don't already want to go, whether it's to good things or bad. It's up to the people to lead government to where we want them to go.

You cannot change the state, and expect to change the culture by so doing. You must change the culture, and thereby change the state. The left understands this - this is precisely why they control the schools and the media. Perhaps someday we'll fully understand that too...

1,088 posted on 12/23/2002 7:25:40 PM PST by general_re
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To: general_re
It matters to me, but that's almost irrelevant.

I asked you if it matters to you, so therefore it's relevant for me. You keep throwing in this - I'd have to call it a phobia at this point - about "imposing" solutions on the American people, when I haven't suggested any such thing. What I'm trying to get from you is what you think our goals should be. Once we've determined that, then we can worry about how to get there.

So you've acknowledged that it matters to you whether government violates the Constitution. Would you say it's doing so now when it says that exercise of what would otherwise be a generally unrestricted freedom shall be conditional upon "consensual" searches?

1,110 posted on 12/24/2002 11:41:07 AM PST by inquest
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