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To: DouglasKC
Why do you consider yourself an athiest?

#1 Because if there is a Creator, I have not met him/her. If there is a Creator, then that person is actually someone we could touch as a physical manifestation on the Earth (albeit an all powerful, immortal being) in this present day material world. #2 Because I do not agree with anyone on the nature of what God could be if evidence of such a personage were revealed to exist (this includes various translations of the Bible and those of other religious texts). #3 Human and all other life is finite and there is no life in the Universe other than that which is on this Earth. #4 Most importantly, it does not matter. If there is a God, our lives are pre-destined/pre-determined - - according to your theological perspective, the case of Job, Moses, Jesus and others, asserts this is the case. The chemistry of genetics also lends to the idea that life is pre-determined and possibly not beyond human controls. There are many more...

264 posted on 12/25/2002 9:43:57 AM PST by Sir Francis Dashwood
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood
#1 Because if there is a Creator, I have not met him/her. If there is a Creator, then that person is actually someone we could touch as a physical manifestation on the Earth (albeit an all powerful, immortal being) in this present day material world.

Interesting. I was having this very same debate with Christians on another thread. They also insist that Christ is now a physical manifestation now (albeit an all powerful, immortal being.)

I disagree. God created everything through Christ. Our entire universe, everything we can or can not see is creation. Every quark, every proton. Every black hole. Every element. Space and time itself. I don't know if you accept all of the bible, but I base my beliefs on it:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The nature of God is completely outside of the created. God isn't bound by anything in his creation. He's eternal indeed because he's outside of time. If he's outside of time then he's outside of the creation and invisible, or unseeable, to us. He does intereact, but we can only sense and describe his presence in the vaguest of terms...spirituality, love, intellect, rationality, creativeness, etc.

As a Christian I don't believe I will ever be able to "see" God as a physical manifestation until Christ returns and I become like him and then am able to see him as he is:

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

In short the divine entity known as God cannot be composed of anything in the universe that he created. If he were than he would be bound by the same laws of physics as us. He wouldn't be eternal, or immortal, or all powerful.

#2 Because I do not agree with anyone on the nature of what God could be if evidence of such a personage were revealed to exist (this includes various translations of the Bible and those of other religious texts).

See above.

#3 Human and all other life is finite and there is no life in the Universe other than that which is on this Earth.

I agree. The possiblity that life exists elsewhere is slim to none. That only makes the case for a creator stronger to me.

#4 Most importantly, it does not matter. If there is a God, our lives are pre-destined/pre-determined - - according to your theological perspective, the case of Job, Moses, Jesus and others, asserts this is the case.

Not correct. The courses of our lives are known to God, but the choices are always ours. We are led but God, but not dragged. Every choice we make is entirely of our own free will. Knowing the outcome is not the same as making it happen.

The chemistry of genetics also lends to the idea that life is pre-determined and possibly not beyond human controls.

The creation is not the creator. Given enough time and intellect we can figure out how certain parts of the creation operate and behave. Nothing new there, we've been doing it for millenia. But what we can never do is go beyond our reality.

At any rate, I thank you for your contributions to this thread.

271 posted on 12/25/2002 8:19:12 PM PST by DouglasKC
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