Hunble,

Our correspondent, FL, is clearly a manicoid obsessional on this subject. Who knows what may be the sources of his animus but, furthermore, he is 'informed' in an oddly perseverative mode, but actually quite bizarre.

His is, mostly, TFH stuff.

Money? Of course money. However you are overlooking who stands to make the biggest bucks in this whole mandatory vaccination scheme, the pharma companies. Who do you think is behind the whole mandatory innoculation for Hep-B (which isn't communicable except by blood and sex) for 2 month olds (yes, two month olds). ? It's like brokerage firms and sales...they make a commission on a per head basis. Each and every vaccine they can force the population to take under the color of law is $$$'s in their pockets. Guaranteed revenue stream. And, they're the ones who've done away with the ability to sue them for bioterrorism related innoculations.

(Ok you say, there are going to be a certain number of side effects, sure. However, you also let them off the hook for any and all quality control issues. How do you know the tech watching the process didn't take a nap and your vaccine is just saline solution...? Now you can't sue them for negligence...HA! Remember the pharma company, SGP, that got sued and investigated by FDA recently for distributing asthma inhalers containers that were empty? Under these new laws, if they'd distributed smallpox vaccines that weren't really effective at all (read, saline solution because they had a quota and deadline to meet) you'd have absolutely no recourse...)

The other day a friend gave me a book from 1974 on vaccines. There is a rather large section dealing with the history of smallpox vaccinations. In a nutshell, it says where and when smallpox vaccines were given as routine, many people died. They correlate the number of vaccines with the number of deaths from smallpox.

I have been looking into the smallpox issue because it is a great concern to me. There is an obvious correlation between populations vaccinated against smallpox and people dying of smallpox. There are so many sources to find information on this topic; however, it seems too many people have already made up their minds that it's safe because that's what their gov. tells them. In this book I now have from 1974 about vaccines, it talks about many of the incidents you have posted. It is a very well resourced book.

I realize it's becoming taboo to question anything about our current gov, but I am not comfortable with a lot of things that are going on. And I can't believe people are telling you that you don't know what you are talking about when they have obviously not looked into it, otherwise they would be in agreement.

There is an interesting and all too true quote in the beginning of this book by a J.H. Tilden M.D.:

"It is exceedingly difficult to secure an honest hearing for any criticism of authority. Established beliefs are well nigh invulnerable because they are accorded infallibility by the masses who are educated to believe that they will be damned for thinking, and because of this, few will tolerate opposition of any nature to anything they have been educated to believe. People who have their thinking done for them are always intolerant."

My husband has been a research scientist for some time, as was my father. Both are/were familiar with the ego trips, the status-quo thinking, the back stabbing and the stealing of ideas. So much progress has been stunted in my opinion because of the ego problems among many research scientists. Fortunatly, the really bright ones who get things done tend not have the greatest people skills, so they don't play into these games and actually discover things and get things done. Both my father and husband fall under this category I am proud to say.

Incidently, did you know that all school shootings as of late were perpetrated by those under the influence of a antdepressant and/or Ritalin?

Thanks now I know your opinions are nuts. Cause and effect are not alien terms to each other.

for some on your debate side its still about the money. Disgusting.

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VICTIMS OF RELIGION-BASED MEDICAL NEGLECT

We would like to share with you the stories of some of the children who have died because of religion-based medical neglect. Bear in mind that many others have been disabled or psychologically harmed as a result of this sort of neglect. These particular stories are well-documented and representative of the problem.

In our view, these children's parents are neither bad people nor morally innocent. They loved their children as much as any parent does. We feel their tragically wrong behavior is motivated mainly by fear and confusion.

Religious exemption laws add to the confusion because they are used by certain churches as evidence that the state endorses the withholding of medical care on religious grounds. The parents may not comprehend the risk they are taking with their child's life when they believe that the state endorses their action. The Christian Science church even uses the religious exemption laws as evidence that legislators agree with them that Christian Science can heal all diseases as effectively as medical care.

We believe that these cases show the need to remove religious exemptions from child health care requirements. Surely they illustrate the fact that the state cannot always protect children with court orders. People have many inhibitions about reporting child abuse. Furthermore, many sick children in faith-healing sects are seen only by fellow church members.

Ian Matthew Amy Robyn Andrew Harrison

IAN

Ian Lundman, age 11, died of diabetes in 1989 in suburban Minneapolis. His father had left Christian Science, but did not have custody. The boy lost weight and became lethargic. A school official noticed a fruity odor on Ian's breath, a classic diabetes symptom, but did not recognize it as such nor did she know his mother and stepfather had religious beliefs against medical care.

They retained a Christian Science practitioner for spiritual treatment of Ian's illness. The practitioner billed them $446 for his prayers.

An unlicensed Christian Science nurse sat by Ian's bedside for the last five hours of his life as he lay in a diabetic coma. She knew that he did not respond to anyone. She observed his vomiting, labored breathing, excessive urination, facial spasms, and clenched teeth. Nevertheless, her concept of care was to give him drops of water through a straw and to tie a sandwich bag and washcloth around his scrotum. She did not call for medical help or ask his mother to obtain it.

Ian's father filed a wrongful death suit against the mother, stepfather, Christian Science practitioner and nurse, the Christian Science church, and other church agents. A jury awarded him $5 million in compensatory damages and $9 million in punitive damages.

The award was later reduced to $1.5 million. An appellate court dismissed charges against the church, but held that the practitioner and nurse had a duty to obtain medical care for the child. The Minnesota and U.S. Supreme Courts refused to review the ruling.

McKown v. Lundman, 516 U. S. 1099, cert. denied (1996), is the first suit in the wrongful death of a Christian Science child to be presented to a jury. The higher court ruling that Christian Science "providers" have a duty to obtain medical care for a sick child may make them less reckless in children's cases. However, Christian Science church officials trivialize the ruling, saying it is relevant only to Minnesota. "We'll still continue to practice our religion as we have been for a hundred years," said the church's public relations manager. The New York Times, January 23, 1996, p. 1.

Christian Science nurse Quinna Lamb Giebelhaus who cared for Ian testified that Christian Science is an excellent method of treating juvenile-onset diabetes and that Christian Science nurses are well trained to care for patients sick with all diseases. She was asked at trial what training she had received specific to the care of sick children. Her only answer was that she had been taught to cut sandwiches in interesting shapes.

Giebelhaus has a testimony about how she healed herself with Christian Science in the January 26, 1998, Christian Science Sentinel.

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MATTHEW

Matthew Swan, age 16 months, died of spinal meningitis in 1977 in Detroit, Michigan. His parents, Doug and Rita Swan, both lifelong Christian Scientists, retained Christian Science practitioners for spiritual "treatments."

The practitioners repeatedly said they were healing Matthew. Symptoms were reinterpreted as evidence of healing. For example, one practitioner who observed the baby's convulsions said he might be "gritting his teeth" because he was "planning some great achievement." The practitioners demanded more faith and gratitude from the Swans. They complained that the Swans' fears and other sins were obstructing their treatment.

After nearly two weeks of serious illness, a practitioner said Matthew might have a broken bone and that Christian Scientists are allowed to go to doctors for setting of broken bones. The Swans took Matthew to a hospital, where the disease was diagnosed as Hemophilus influenza meningitis. He lived for a week in intensive care. The Christian Science practitioners would not pray for him while he had medical care.

The Swans left the Christian Science church shortly after their son's death and later founded CHILD.

The Christian Science Church continues to misinform its members and endanger their children by claiming it can heal spinal meningitis. CHILD believes its "healings" are of viral meningitis, which may well be symptomless and, in any event, usually causes no permanent injury with or without treatment. By contrast, the bacterial form of meningitis which killed Matthew Swan is nearly 100% fatal without antibiotic treatment and 95% curable with antibiotics. Today it is also vaccine-preventable.

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AMY

Amy Hermanson, 7, died in 1986 in Sarasota, Florida. A talented little girl, she took piano, violin, harp, and art lessons, and excelled in academic subjects also. Many teachers and employees at her mother's business observed Amy's weight loss and lethargy over a four-week period, but did not report to Child Protection Services (CPS). They did not know she had diabetes. Some assumed the parents were providing medical treatment. One employee said she did not report to CPS because she knew the Hermansons were Christian Scientists and they were "signing [her] paycheck." A neighbor urged her mother to take her to a doctor, but the mother refused. A few minutes later, Amy crawled in from another room on her hands and knees and begged her mother to take her home. Her aunt said that she was incoherent and unable to focus her eyes the day before she died.

The Hermansons were convicted of felony child abuse and third-degree murder. In 1992, however, the Florida Supreme Court overturned their conviction on fair notice grounds. Citing a religious exemption in Florida's civil code, the Court said, "The statutes have created a trap that the legislature should address." Nine years later, however, the Florida legislature still has not done so.

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ROBYN

In 1986, Robyn Twitchell, age 2, who lived near Boston, died of peritonitis and a twisted bowel after a five-day illness. It began with his screaming and vomiting. By the second day, his parents Ginger and David Twitchell were calling the Christian Science church's worldwide public relations manager for advice. He assured them that the law granted them the right to use Christian Science treatment instead of medical treatment.

On the fourth day, a church nurse recorded: "Child listless at times, rejecting all food, moaning in pain, three wounds on thigh." The nurse force-fed him and directed his mother to feed him every half hour. On the fifth day, he was vomiting "a brown, foul-smelling substance." Autopsy photos showed bright red lips and chin, probably because the acid in the vomit had eaten the skin off. His scrotum and about 15 inches of his ruptured intestine were jet black because their blood supply had been cut off. He was so dehydrated that his skin stayed up when pinched. Neighbors closed their bedroom window so they would not hear the boy's screams.

At the Twitchells' trial, a Christian Science practitioner testified that she had achieved a complete healing of Robyn and that he had run around happily chasing his kitty cat 15 minutes before he died. Rigor mortis had set in before the parents called 911.

Ginger and David Twitchell were convicted of manslaughter in 1990. In 1993 the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court overturned the conviction on a technicality, but also ruled that parents had a legal duty to provide necessary medical care for their children regardless of their religious beliefs. Later that year the Massachusetts legislature repealed a religious exemption to a misdemeanor in large part because of public outrage over Robyn's painful death.

Massachusetts today has no religious exemptions in the criminal code and no exemptions in the civil code dealing with medical care for sick children. The state does however have religious exemptions from immunizations, metabolic testing of newborns, and lead poison screening.

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ANDREW

Andrew Wantland, age 12, died of untreated diabetes in LaHabra, California, in 1992. A Christian Science practitioner attempted to heal him with prayer for four days. He lost thirty pounds. On the last day of his life, he was emaciated, vomiting, and urinating frequently. Later in the day he was unable to eat, drink, make eye contact, speak, or move around.

His mother, Gayle Quigley, lived in Philadelphia and was not a Christian Scientist. She had joint custody of Andrew and had made it clear that she wanted medical care provided for her children.

Nevertheless, neither Andrew's father, the Christian Science faith healer, nor other church officials informed Mrs. Quigley that her son was ill.

No criminal charges were filed in the boy's death. Mrs. Quigley filed a civil wrongful death action against the Christian Science church, the practitioner, Andrew's father, grandmother, and others. The district court, however, ruled that only the father could be held responsible, and an appellate court upheld the ruling in a split decision. Quigley then dropped the suit. See Quigley v. The First Church of Christ, Scientist, et al., 76 Cal. Rep. 2nd 792.

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HARRISON

In 1998 two-year-old Harrison Johnson, shown here with his friend Megan, was stung 432 times by wasps while the family was visiting church friends in Tampa, Florida. His parents asked neighborhood children and fellow church members to pray for him, but did not call for medical help until more than 7 hours after the attack.

Six minutes after the 911 call, the EMT's arrived to find the toddler without a pulse and not breathing. His pupils were fixed and dilated. His parents admitted the boy had been unresponsive for 30 to 45 minutes.

An Orlando pediatrician told the press that the toddler would likely have displayed alarming symptoms. He would have been crying and in great pain until he slipped into shock. His lungs would have filled with fluid.

His parents belong to a group called The Fellowship, which reportedly shuns all medical care on grounds that doctors practice witchcraft.

A former medical nurse, Carol Balizet, of Tampa attended Harrison's home delivery and was present with him for several hours after he was stung. She advised the parents that he did not need medical care. Her book BORN IN ZION promotes Christian home births and argues that medical care is linked to pagan witchcraft.

The Johnsons were charged with felony child abuse. The judge, however, instructed the jury that the state must prove that the parents willfully or intentionally caused the harm to the child. The jury acquitted.

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Letting Children Die for the Faith

by Rita Swan

The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 19, Number 1.

What kind of society would we have if everyone were allowed to violate laws that offended his or her religious beliefs? Most people would see that as anarchy. Children, however, die because of their parents’ religious beliefs about medical care, and the response of public officials is generally muted.

When pediatrician Seth Asser and I studied these deaths, we found that, of 172 U.S. children who died between 1975 and 1995 after their parents withheld medical care on religious grounds, 140 fatalities were from conditions for which survival rates with medical care would have exceeded 90%.¹ We believe that the cases in our files were only the minor fraction of the actual number of deaths. Only 43 of 172 deaths were prosecuted. In many cases public officials dismissed these deaths as due to natural causes.

Shortly after our research was published, the Oregonian reported that the Followers of Christ Church in Clackamas County lets children die without medical care. The congregation has its own cemetery and has buried 78 children there since 1955.

Surely these are astronomical death rates in a congregation with an estimated 1,200 members. Yet public officials remained indifferent for decades. In more than 50 cases, the state either did not bother to determine the cause of the children’s deaths or the records have been lost. Since 1987, the medical examiner has performed autopsies and brought cases to the district attorney’s office. The prosecutor, however, declined to file charges, claiming that the parents had a constitutional right to withhold lifesaving care from their children.

In the past year Followers children without medical care have died of a renal infection, a strangulated hernia, and diabetes. New Clackamas County District Attorney Terry Gustafson wants to file charges, but has concluded that Oregon laws providing religious immunity to charges of homicide by abuse or neglect and manslaughter, enacted in 1995 and 1997, prevent her from doing so.

An Idaho affiliate of the Followers has had 12 children die since 1980. None of these 90 children was known to Seth and me when we did our research for Pediatrics.

The United States has a vast array of religious exemption laws that allow parents to deprive children of health care. These include religious exemptions from criminal charges, civil abuse and neglect charges, immunizations, physical examinations, prophylactic eyedrops, metabolic testing of newborns, lead poison screening, and instruction about disease.

These exemptions have brought very serious harm to children. Many outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases have occurred in groups claiming religious exemptions from immunizations. Prophylactic eyedrops prevent blindness. Metabolic testing detects disorders that cause mental retardation if left untreated.

States with a religious defense to the most serious crimes against children include Iowa and Ohio (a religious defense to manslaughter); Delaware and West Virginia (religious defenses to murder of a child); Arkansas (religious defense to capital murder); and Oregon (religious defenses to homicide by abuse or neglect, manslaughter, criminal mistreatment, and nonsupport). Oregon laws extend religious immunity beyond medical neglect. A parent may be beating or torturing a child, but if he or she can show that the child was prayed for, criminal charges must be dismissed.

In 1996 the first religious exemption allowing parents to withhold medical care was placed in federal law. The Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act requires states in the federal grant program to include failure to provide medical care in their definitions of child neglect, but also states: “Nothing in this Act shall be construed as establishing a Federal requirement that a parent or legal guardian provide a child any medical service or treatment against the religious beliefs of the parent or legal guardian.” Thus, the federal government allows one class of children to be deprived of protections it offers to others.

Why does a country that prides itself on fairness allow this discrimination against children? The short answer is that the Christian Science Church, which does virtually all the lobbying for these exemptions, has money and power. Among the lawyers the church has retained to fight its battles are Ken Starr, Warren Christopher, and Michael McConnell. The church maintains a salaried lobbyist in every state and besieges legislators with letters, calls, and visits from church members.

A recent scholarly journal article estimates U.S. membership in the Christian Science church at 106,000, predominantly elderly members and says Christian Science may die out within a generation.² Yet legislators and other public officials look upon the church as a towering giant to whom they must pay obeisance.

A fuller explanation for the church’s success lies in the low status of children in American culture. Children have neither the franchise nor financial power with which to influence the political process. Child welfare organizations are not as alert and energetic as they should be on public policy.

The very idea of children having rights is threatening to many Americans. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child has been ratified by 191 nations. Only the United States and Somalia have not. The United States has well-organized, vocal opponents who charge that the treaty threatens family structure and parental rights.

Hillary Clinton’s book It Takes a Village was attacked by some members of the Christian Right for claiming that society has an interest and a role in the well-being of children. For them children are the property of their parents.

The mass media have little interest in religious exemption laws. A few years ago the New York Times ran a sizable article about the Christian Science Church reissuing its textbook, a topic that cannot possibly be considered news, but was promoted by the church’s public relations firm. By contrast, the Times has never, to my knowledge, published an article about religious exemptions from health care for children. With the press unwilling to devote attention to state or federal exemption legislation, politicians are not penalized for enacting more exemptions nor credited for standing up to the Christian Science church and opposing them.

Too many public officials believe that the First Amendment gives parents the right to withhold medical care from children as a religious practice. As Lake City, Florida Mayor Gerald Witt said of local faith-related deaths, “It may be necessary for some babies to die to maintain our religious freedoms. It may be the price we have to pay; everything has a price.”

Courts have consistently ruled that the First Amendment does not include a right to deprive children of medical care, but legislators nevertheless continue to give parents such rights by statute. Some argue that parents motivated by religion do not intend for the child to be hurt and therefore should have an exemption from child abuse and neglect charges. But nearly all parents love their children and believe they are acting in their children’s best interest. It takes more than good intentions to nurture and protect a child.

The limits of religious freedom would not be hard to understand if adult interests were being compromised. No legislature has enacted religious defenses to crimes against adults.

The bottom line is that children are helpless and that parents have custody of them. Society must require parents to provide children with the necessities of life regardless of their religious beliefs.

14. When faith fails children--religion-based neglect: Pervasive, deadly...and legal?
Humanist, Nov. 1, 2000
http://beta.yellowbrix.com/

[Story no longer online? Read this]
My husband Douglas and I were devout, lifelong Christian Scientists until 1977 when we lost our only son Matthew as a result of our religious beliefs regarding medical care. It's hard for most people to understand this. It's hard for many to grasp how parents could watch a beloved child suffer, yet not call a doctor. I need to begin, therefore, by describing the pressures involved.

The First Church of Christ, Scientist, founded in the late nineteenth century by Mary Baker Eddy, teaches that all disease is caused by sin. As little Matthew lay helpless with a raging fever, his body and bedding soaked with perspiration, the Christian Science practitioners told us that our negative feelings were making our baby sick. Our doubts, fears, lack of gratitude to them, and problems with relatives were the sins causing Matthew's illness.

Christian Science theology had trained us to believe that physicians don't really heal-at best, they only relieve symptoms; the underlying cause of the disease remains a moral problem that God alone can solve. Furthermore, this church doesn't allow its practitioners to give spiritual treatments to those who voluntarily go to a physician. Such a rule, as contrasted with the teachings of most other religious denominations, instructs that God and a doctor are mutually exclusive alternatives.

The Christian Science church also opposes medical diagnosis as much as it does medical treatment. Because of this, my husband and I had no way of acquiring rational information about Matthew's illness without breaking church rules. We wanted relief for our baby and considered taking him to a doctor, but we were terrified that the doctor wouldn't be able to treat the disease, which was a mystery to us, and then we'd have no way to resume the Christian Science healing. Thus, if we made the wrong decision, we could find ourselves bereft of help from both medical science and God.

On the twelfth day of his illness, however, a path of action seemed to open for us. The practitioner told us that Matthew might have a broken bone and that the Christian Science church does allow members to go to doctors to have bones set. Immediately we took Matthew to a hospital. As I walked in with our nearly dead baby in my arms, I asked the staff to check him for only the broken bone. But later, when we phoned our practitioner from the hospital, expecting her to continue praying for Matthew, she indignantly rejected us, saying that she had ''seen all along'' we were lacking in faith.

Our baby was diagnosed with h-flu meningitis, which has been routinely treated with antibiotics since the 194(?s and is vaccine- preventable today. The doctors explained to us how the disease had caused the symptoms we had seen. That's when we realized that the very things the Christian Science practitioners had insisted were signs the religious treatments were working were, in fact, signs of impending disaster. (For example, one practitioner, who observed Matthew's convulsions, said he might be ''gritting his teeth'' because he was ''planning some great achievement.'')

Matthew lived a week longer in intensive care on a respirator and then died. Immediately afterwards, my husband and I left the Christian Science church.

Sadly, our experience isn't unique. There have been far too many other children who have suffered and died under similar circumstances. This is why my husband and I founded Children's Healthcare Is a Legal Duty, Inc. (CHILD), a national membersip organization that promotes the rights of children to medical care and opposes religion-related abuse and neglect of children. And this is why we think it is important to share not only our own story but those of other parents and their children.

Yes, I know. Pesticides are awful. Wish I could successfully grow my own. We had a garden this year and the deer ate all of it. We have to figure out a way to keep them out. Any suggestions?

Doctors today scare me. Mine has given me two medications that diabetics should not take. I always ask now about side effects or I ask the druggist or my nutritionist (who knows more than most doctors do about these things). My doctor is also the one who gave this child the oral vaccine....

Yeah, ol Eddy Jenner, what a quack! He only saved millions of lives, proably including your owm pinheaded ancestors, what a waste that turned out to be, eh?

I suppose you didn't understand the words that said "THOSE WHO HAD COWPOX STILL CONTRACTED AND DIED FROM SMALLPOX". It means, the VACCINE DOES'T WORK!

In other words, Jenner was nothing more than a BS artist.

His is, mostly, TFH stuff

Your stuff smells of ignorant BS.

God forbid somebody tries to make money honestly, instead of demanding that the government FORCE us to consume their products (or toxic waste, as is the case in fluoride)..

Its all a commie plot.

To you, obviously, refusal to allow quacks with syringes full of toxin to inject our children amounts to the same thing as refusing antibiotics when medically necessary. You have a VERY narrow mind, and wear blinders over your eyes.

Do you work for a drug company, or perhaps the US government?

BTW, do you think you can stop spamming this thread with your hysterical bleating? I'm posting historical evidence on vaccines, where you are posting religiously orientated legal battles...

My doctor is also the one who gave this child the oral vaccine....

I'd suggest you find another doctor...

The other day a friend gave me a book from 1974 on vaccines. There is a rather large section dealing with the history of smallpox vaccinations. In a nutshell, it says where and when smallpox vaccines were given as routine, many people died. They correlate the number of vaccines with the number of deaths from smallpox.

Those are the facts. Apparently certain people on this thread would like to rewrite history and make believe those facts don't exist.

You are, as I have said before, and likely will say again, invincible in your ignorance.

You post not ONE scientific fact nor do you appear to even be capable of UNDERSTANDING anything in relation to science, yet you call ME ignorant?

I guess Ron, and Doug, who I knew when they were the same age as I was, and contracted polio in the third grade, would be very interested that polio "had disappeared', those wacky slackers, just having fun in those wacky iron lungs!

Because you knew a few people that had polio doesn't mean it wasn't on the DECLINE. "On the DECLINE" means cases were fewer in number month to month. What year are you talking about?

You KNOW, after all, you KNOW, I mean you read a bunch of articles, you are a world class cutter and paster, yes indeed there's emphirical facts for you. You talked to GOD, he told you the TRUTH. Hundreds of years and millions of lives notwithstanding you know the truth!

I back up my position with facts, links to those facts, and evidence that most people find helpful. You post nothing but ridicule and invectives. You back up your position with nothing, but you find fault with me because I DO provide factual evidence and links to more info. I have asked you to provide scientific studies and facts to backup your claims, yet you haven't. You obviously have no facts on your side, so you attempt to win your argument by saying I'm some sort of idiot for posting facts. You are a piece of work..

I'm posting historical evidence on vaccines,

You are posting information whose original source is Christian Science rantings.

It could get someone killed. It already has.

BTW, Jesus used medicine to heal.