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Opinion - Did the Founders want us to have GUNS? (SJ Mercury)
SJ Mercury News ^ | 12/11/02 | Opinion of the Editor

Posted on 12/11/2002 8:47:09 AM PST by NormsRevenge

Edited on 04/13/2004 3:30:03 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: Varmint Al
Whatever predicate descriptors and less-than-finite justifications were used in its preamble, the 2nd Amendment in its conclusion states very simply:

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Let's repeat that, if only for our learning impaired liberal schmuck neighbors:

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

There are only three kinds of people who wish this were not so:

1. Criminals
2. Tyrants
3. Would-be-Tyrants

Bring 'em on. Lock 'n' load.

41 posted on 12/11/2002 10:20:50 AM PST by Gargantua
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To: TC Rider
TC Rider said: "The '39 court found that a sawed-off shotgun was not a suitable weapon for militias."

I think that this overstates the decision. The court had no evidence either way and their decision, I believe, was to send it back to lower courts.

It has been some time since I have read the decision, but my understanding of legal procedure is not sufficient to understand what the possible continuations might have been.

Perhaps some legal expert would offer an opinion. Did the Miller decision empower a lower court to take any further action on the case? Did the Miller decision empower Miller to take any further action? Did the Miller decision empower the prosecution to take any further action? I have read that no further action was taken.

42 posted on 12/11/2002 10:24:02 AM PST by William Tell
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To: NormsRevenge
"The Second Amendment's awkward wording does invite dispute."

Nonsense.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The people are individuals, not states. The people make up the militia, not states. Free states don't exist when individuals are forbidden from keeping and bearing their own arms. There is no security whatsoever when the people can't effectively defend themselves.

The complex subject of the sentence is "the right to keep and bear arms". The preposition, of, reckons whose right it is. The reckoning points to, "the people". The rest qualifies as reasoning for the prohibition on govm't.

Since these folks that sit on the court are not that dumb. They are liers and petty tyrants.

43 posted on 12/11/2002 10:25:50 AM PST by spunkets
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To: Constitutional Patriot
I think the question might be useful in causing cognitive dissonance within the skull of this editor.
44 posted on 12/11/2002 10:35:30 AM PST by coloradan
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To: steve50
While 'well regulated' may mean well governed or controlled in today's parlance, the term had a different meaning in colonial times. 'Regulated' was eqivilant to today's 'supplied' or 'provisioned'. Try substituting either word for 'regulated'in the Second Amendment and you will find it is not in the least confusing. This makes an abundance of sense when one remembers that the early milita was responsible for bringing their own weapons, horses and other provisions.
45 posted on 12/11/2002 10:36:19 AM PST by Res Nullius
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To: NormsRevenge
From the article: "The Second Amendment's awkward wording does invite dispute. The 5th Circuit has focused on the amendment's last clause, referring to ``the right of the people to keep and bear arms.'' The 9th Circuit emphasized the first, referring to the necessity of ``well-regulated'' militias."

People who are in journalism should be expected to understand grammatical constructs. Suggesting, as this article does, that the two clauses have equal weight in the sentence is a purposeful attempt to create confusion where none exists.

If our Constitution did not contain a Bill of Rights, the author of this article could have found himself hanged as a counter-revolutionary if he had lived at the time of our nation's founding. He, no doubt, believes that the US government won the American Revolution, when, in fact, the Revolution was won by armed insurrectionists who overthrew the established government by defeating the Regular Army of the time. They used weapons which they already owned or which they were able to jointly obtain. The government at that time send soldiers to confiscate weapons from Lexington and Concord. The "embattled farmers" met them at Concord and "the shot heard round the world" was fired.

The statue commemorating these events depicts the farmer, holding his musket and standing next to his plow. It is essential to these counter-revolutionaries that children not be taught these simple truths.

46 posted on 12/11/2002 10:36:23 AM PST by William Tell
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To: spunkets
Further historical review makes an even stronger case. The first two parts of the 2nd Amendment say, "A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state...",

If the Founders intent was to preserve the peoples' ability to protect themselves from any possible unconstitutional future intrusions of the Federal Government (and it clearly was), then a "well regulated militia" refers to a citizenry which not only possesses guns, but which further possesses arms sufficient to defend itself against the Federal Army.

That is to say, guns which are similar in firepower and design to those employed by the military. Else how could these arms, if needed, be expected to repel or thwart the Federal forces?

It is this fact which terrifies the modern-day government and their liberal toadies. But, that it terrifies them does not alter the fact of the Founders' clear intent.

Any attempt on the part of any branch of the Federal Government, be it Executive, Legislative, or Judicial, to impede, alter, restrict, or usurp this Constitutional right of the people should be viewed as treason... and as being punishable as such.

Jefferson said that "The tree of Liberty is watered with the blood of patriots..." and, "A little Revolution every now and then is a good thing..."

Lucky for our gutless politicians, they haven't the stomach to really test those precepts... they have it a little too good right now to go detonating the boat they ride in.

47 posted on 12/11/2002 10:42:16 AM PST by Gargantua
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To: NormsRevenge
Regardless of how the text of the second amendment was worded, the intent of the founding fathers was that every individual had the right to bear arms. The reason.....to prevent tyranny. All we have to do is look at the history of tyranny in the 20th. century to see the wisdom in their plan. Unfortunately, liberal anti gun utopians choose to ignore this reality. Either that, or they are just ignorant dupes.
48 posted on 12/11/2002 10:47:50 AM PST by hove
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To: NormsRevenge
Reinhardt's timely opinion, replete with historical citations, makes a credible argument that that was not what the Founders intended.

Um, no it doesn't.

49 posted on 12/11/2002 10:53:02 AM PST by MileHi
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To: NormsRevenge
B***S***. Without the 2nd amendment, the rest can be easily taken away by any tin horn dictator who can gain control of the police and military (say Slick Wille). If this insanity stands say goodbye to freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, freedom of press, etc. Ironic that without the 2nd amendment, the SJ Mercury News would not be able to report such things. Talk about shooting oneself in the foot!
50 posted on 12/11/2002 10:56:17 AM PST by MoGalahad
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To: NormsRevenge
..."but the 9th Circuit's position has been the standard view for more than 60 years."

The last 60 years.

If it was the first 60 someone might be able to argue that's what the founding fathers wanted. It isn't. It has been only the last 60 that judges forgot how to read a simple sentence and use common sense.

51 posted on 12/11/2002 12:55:42 PM PST by Shooter 2.5
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To: NormsRevenge
In the past decade, however, there has been a noticeable shift among some constitutional scholars, with Eugene Volokh of UCLA openly embracing and Laurence Tribe of Harvard haltingly acknowledging an individual right.

There seems to be something wrong with my eyes. I'll come back in a few hours, and see if it says Laurence Tribe.

52 posted on 12/11/2002 1:03:39 PM PST by dighton
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To: dighton
Yes it does. He has admitted he hates guns and hates the Second Amendment, but also that guns and for that matter the Second Amendment both exist and that the latter means individuals have a right to the former. In fact, he wrote a revised copy of his Constitutional Law book (the book on the subject at Harvard Law School) that explicitly delves into the fact that the Second Amendment regards an individual right, just like the rest of the articles in the Bill of Rights. As much as he hates that this is true and that guns even exist.
53 posted on 12/11/2002 1:30:25 PM PST by coloradan
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To: NormsRevenge
Write them a letter! letters@sjmercury.com
54 posted on 12/11/2002 1:36:54 PM PST by coloradan
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To: MileHi
"Replete with historical citations..." cribbed from Michael Bellesiles thoroughly discredited work of academic fraud, "Arming America."
55 posted on 12/11/2002 1:42:00 PM PST by mvpel
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To: coloradan
Astonishing. My (admittedly uninformed) opinion of Mr. Tribe just went up a notch.
56 posted on 12/11/2002 1:47:52 PM PST by dighton
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To: MoGalahad
You know, it's almost a waste of time to argue with these nimrods. The Supreme Court will take the case, they'll find an individual right, and the editorial board of the Merc will just sit there scratching their heads while the rest of us strap on our guns and go about our lives without fear of arrest and prosecution or criminal assault. The crime rate will plummet nationwide, and all these words they've written will dissolve into dust blown along by the hot air they're sure to emit.
57 posted on 12/11/2002 1:57:30 PM PST by mvpel
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bttt
58 posted on 12/11/2002 2:18:14 PM PST by Pagey
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To: William Tell; TC Rider
US v Miller

The District Court held that section 11 of the Act violates the Second Amendment. It accordingly sustained the demurrer and quashed the indictment.

The cause is here by direct appeal.
...
In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.
....
We are unable to accept the conclusion of the court below and the challenged judgment must be reversed. The cause will be remanded for further proceedings.

Reversed and remanded.

59 posted on 12/11/2002 2:40:46 PM PST by Oztrich Boy
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To: NormsRevenge
"Did the Founders want us to have GUNS?"

Yes.
60 posted on 12/11/2002 2:58:19 PM PST by Darksheare
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