PJB: An Index of Catholicism's Decline

WorldNet Daily ^ | 12/10/02 | Patrick J. Buchanan

[ninenot]

My children are the beneficiaries of such a school. Since it was established during the reign of Rembert the Vandal, we are not allowed to use the term "Catholic" to describe the school.

The children graduate from 8th grade with two years of Latin, 8 years of English, 4 years of grammar, and at least 2 years of applied rhetoric--EVERY child is on the State-Champion Forensics team (5 years in a row champs!!!!)

[ninenot]

I have argued before that the "post-hoc/propter-hoc" argument seemingly made by PJB is fallacious, and it is.

HOWEVER, PJB is using V.II as a time-demarcation (as do many critics of the new Mass, for example.) It's shorthand, convenient rhetoric.

As you and I (and PJB) well know, it was not the Council which caused these problems--it was partly the IMPLEMENTATION (flawed in many serious ways) and partly the influence of American relativism/materialism.

[Desdemona]

A smaller but purer Church will be in a better position to re-evangelize the West than one bloated by dissenters.

While you have a point, please remember that some of the dissenters are the ones doing a lot of the work and are the daily Mass goers. It's just not going to happen overnight and we're going to put up with a lot to get there. Even in my own house, I'm ridiculed for orthodoxy on some topics. I don't care that they think I'm crazy.

[ninenot]

If PJB were speaking ONLY of the homo problem, your criticism would be accurate. He's not. It includes the vandalism of churches, the destruction of the Liturgy, and the utter fecklessness of clergy who REFUSE to speak of sin, esp. sexual sin.

[Polycarp]

Should we really mourn the declining numbers of faithful laity and religious,

Should we no longer mourn the loss of souls to eternal perdition?

[ninenot]

Perhaps more importantly, important doctrinal changes (or obfuscations) were imposed such as in regard to the necessity to one's salvation of being a Catholic (I am talking about the documents on ecumensim and religious liberty).

Careful.

This is Feeneyite territory.

It is impossible for a Catholic to declare that a virtuous person, not knowing of Christ, CANNOT be saved.

This would contradict Justice--not a likely event.

[ninenot]

Let's examine logical fallacies: you state "I could easily provide some rather rosy statistics on the rise of Catholicism in Africa." without stating that the African Bishops have not ordained homosexuals wholesale; and without stating that the African Bishops have been perfectly willing to address SIN (all of the possibilities) on a regular basis.

You further forget to mention Europe, which shares many pre-existing and post-traumatic syndromes with the USA.

You state: "And most importantly there is no discussion of the biblical basis for Vatican II - only a dry statistical discussion."

What??? Buchanan's editorial is based on a statistical survey, not a theological treatise.

Tell you what: YOU provide the theology. We await.

[Straight Vermonter]

Not to mention the privateCatholic schools that have sprung up in reaction to the modernizing of many of parish schools.

There was a desire in my hometown to build a Catholic elementary school. None of the local parishes would welcome the school so the parents tried to make it a private Catholic school. The diocese would have nothing to do with it so finally the parents walked away.

This was in the city with the property taxes in the state, in the state with the highest taxes in the country. Parents still wanted to make the financial sacrifice to educate their children in a Catholic school but the Church stood in the way. I just can't understand it.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Long after your cold carcass has turned into dust, the Catholic Church will still be here. Christ guaranteed that.

[ArrogantBustard]

My orthodox (little "o") parish doesn't even have an organ. On good days we have a piano. On bad days, it's an electronic keyboard. And to further scandalize you, I'll state publicly that I'm glad to have them.




I'm glad to have them, because the alternative (guitars, or nothing at all) is worse. We haven't built our Church yet. That'll be some time. We're building our shcool first. Contra Pat Buchannan, we aren't declining.

AB

[Desdemona]

Parents still wanted to make the financial sacrifice to educate their children in a Catholic school but the Church stood in the way. I just can't understand it.

I don't understand it either. As a person who lives in an archdiocese with almost 30 Catholic high schools and countless elementary schhols, that sounds awfully fishy.

[ninenot]

I haven't seen a guitar in church since about 1975

Feel free to come to Milwaukee. They are all over the place up here--in CHURCHES.

I only hear applause when a convert is introduced

Here, it' after all weddings, after certain announcements, and whenever the priest invites it.

the communion rail goes back to rural dark ages Europe, where it was introduced to keep farm animals off the altar.

WRONG and ignorant. Communion rails are a continuation of the Temple's screening of the 'holy of holies' space, and are also a reflection of the Orthodox's 'gated' sanctuaries. Not just a rail, a GATE!

[annulment] is common simply because divorce is more common - Vatican II did not change that.

JPII has been fighting the annulment explosion in the USA tooth and nail, without much success. The commonality of divorce has NOTHING to do with the availability and commonality of annulment--except that for some strange reason, American annulments comprise about 95% of all those granted worldwide. We certainly don't have 95% of all the DIVORCES worldwide.

[ninenot]

NO ONE in his right mind WANTS to "lose" members of the Church. Not for the numbers--but for the salvation of THEIR souls.

[Desdemona]

My orthodox (little "o") parish doesn't even have an organ. On good days we have a piano. On bad days, it's an electronic keyboard. And to further scandalize you, I'll state publicly that I'm glad to have them.

Oh, I'm not scandalized. My grandparents' parish used an accordian for a while. Sometimes you just have to deal with what you have. But the big, half-way wealthy, established parishes in cities, like the one where I go to Mass, have no excuse. Especially when they hire music directors.

[narses]

Ping.

[Maximilian]

1. There is no connection between the cause and the effects.

That wasn't the purpose of the article. Pat Buchanan, and many other writers, have already drawn the cause-and-effect connection many times in the past. The "Index" referred to here is a statistical summary, and Catholics need to come to grips with what it is telling us.

2. Only United States statistics are mentioned.

It's a huge misuderstanding to believe that the Church is doing just great in other parts of the world. It's not. Europe has been devastated. The statistics there are much, much worse than in the United States. Anyone can make up numbers for Africa, but the reality is that the continent is facing devastation, while the Western world runs away and abandons the obligations it took on. Africa even took the lead in the scandals that are now rocking the Church.

Vatican II wasn't tailored to fit Americans.

Quite to the contrary, Vatican II was a triumph of the American version of Catholicism. John Courtney Murray and his theories of separation of church and state triumphed over the teachings of Popes Blessed Pius IX, Leo XIII, Saint Pius X, Pius XI, and Pius XII.

3. There is no analysis of what would have happened had Vatican II not been enacted.

It's ludicrous to criticize a daily newspaper column for not contemplating alternate scenarios. Read the statistics and decide for yourself if things could possibly have been worse. Most are down by 90% to 99%. There just isn't too much room there to squeeze in a worse scenario. As far as the US is concerned, the only worse scenario would be what has happened to the Catholic Church in Europe.

4. And most importantly there is no discussion of the biblical basis for Vatican II - only a dry statistical discussion.

Do you also criticize the "Little Black Book of Communism" for only discussing statistics and not evaluating the philosophical roots of Marxism? This "Index of Catholic Indicators" serves a useful purpose, just like a financial report serves a useful purpose for a company. When a company reports that sales have dropped 90%, do you wonder whether there might have been an even worse plan that might have turned out even worse? When reading about the 100 million deaths documented in the "Little Black Book of Communism," do you wonder if even more people could have been murdered had communism not appeared on the scene?

"By their fruits you shall know them." This is a crop report on the fruits of Vatican II.

[ninenot]

The answer lies in the Church's doctrine of Baptism. There is such a thing as "Baptism of desire," NOT requiring water and the usual text.

Baptism of desire can be imputed in the case of the 'righteous man' (pick somebody living in the Himalayas where no Catholic has ever been) and who, by all accounts, lived according to the natural moral law--which is inborn as conscience.

None of the Patriarchs of the OT either received Communion, nor were baptized with water. Yet we know that Moses, Isaac, and Abraham appeared w/Christ in the NT, glorified.