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PJB: An Index of Catholicism's Decline
WorldNet Daily ^ | 12/10/02 | Patrick J. Buchanan

Posted on 12/11/2002 4:58:07 AM PST by ninenot

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To: livius
Paul Shanley was raping boys in the 1950s.

And he has made the accusation that he was raped by a predecessor (as Cardinal Archbishop) of O'Connor and Medeiros, meaning either Spellman (NY) or Cushing (Boston).

There is still much to learn.

101 posted on 12/11/2002 10:47:23 AM PST by Jim Noble
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To: tm22721
Declining ? Not fast enough IMHO.

“IMHO”. What does that mean? In my humble opinion?

What’s humble about wishing for the downfall of my religion?

Your remark strikes me as quite arrogant and malicious, especially if you are a fellow Christian.


Navigating the treacherous
waters of liberal culture.

102 posted on 12/11/2002 10:47:40 AM PST by Barnacle
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To: ex-snook
Jesus did not write a 'Bible'. Jesus selected Apostles and used the Holy Spirit to teach through them. Then and now.

Correct. However, the Apostles Jesus selected did pen writings which the Church recognizes as scripture. The Holy Spirit teaches through the Apostles writings now, as He taught through the Apostles when they lived.


103 posted on 12/11/2002 10:51:15 AM PST by Quester
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To: Alberta's Child
I think your priest friend is onto something.

More so in Europe than in the US, where the church was not that strong, Catholicism had, especially for the clergy, degenerated into an excessively dogmatic and rule bound institution that was so caught up in arcana that it could no longer do the modern world justice. But at the same time, as an institution, it insisted on its prerogatives.

I think the problems began in Europe when the church obviously was delinquent in its pastoral obligations towards the poor, which resulted in the spread of socialism. The first half of the last century was spent watching the Pontiff who did so die, watching the Habsburgs self-destruct after his sheperding bore its fruits, and then watching national socialism in action. It wasn't until the 60s that things had calmed down enough for the necessary day of reckoning. 60 years worth of changes can't be pushed through in a decade, without a lot of dishes being broken.

104 posted on 12/11/2002 10:57:04 AM PST by a history buff
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To: stuartcr
The Catholic faith is not based upon interpretations of the Bible. We consider that it existed prior to the Bible, which was written over time during the first century, while the faith already existed.

The Catholic Faith is based upon the teachings of Christ to the Apostles, and the teachings of the Apostles to all the peoples of the world. From there it has been handed down intact by each successive generation of the heirarchy and of Catholic parents.

The Catholic Faith is a Divine Revelation from Almighty God. It is proved by the miracles wrought by Christ and his sucessors, foremost among them Christ's Resurrection from the Dead, but not excluding even so trifling a matter as the annual liquification of the blood of St. Januarius (San Gennaro in Italian) in Naples or the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano. If it were defined by human men, we would be worshipping ourselves and our own opinon.

105 posted on 12/11/2002 11:00:51 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Jim Noble
Probably Cushing, if the accusation is true. Cushing was a Liberal.
106 posted on 12/11/2002 11:04:14 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Maximilian
Pat's view is through the rearview mirror...
107 posted on 12/11/2002 11:06:57 AM PST by WriteOn
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To: Quester
"The Holy Spirit teaches through the Apostles writings now, as He taught through the Apostles when they lived. "

I understand your point but differ. I don't believe the Holy Spirit would provide so many different interpretations of what the Apostles taught as are apparent today. If the Holy Spirit was providing the teaching, there would be only one interpretation. Right now many are claiming the Holy Spirit with contradictory message. That is not possible.

I do believe Jesus founded a living Church, with Peter as the head and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. The Church decided the Canon and will 'bind and loose' on earth. Jesus will still teach through people and not exclusively with a text book. Truth cannot contradict truth. Truth must be one.

108 posted on 12/11/2002 11:16:13 AM PST by ex-snook
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To: bulldogs
Find another parish...
109 posted on 12/11/2002 11:16:57 AM PST by WriteOn
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To: yendu bwam
Why don't you quit whining and take the matter in hand? I must've read 4 of your posts so far that suggest you're shaking in your pathetic boots. The first source of catechesis and education ought to be the parents. The domestic church has to stand firm. If you don't trust the schools, homeschool. If you don't trust your priest find a priest you do trust. Sheesh. Whiners...
110 posted on 12/11/2002 11:23:28 AM PST by WriteOn
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
The consideration that it existed prior to the Bible and then was written down, this can be validated, or is it a matter of faith as interpreted from the Apostles? How does one know that it was handed down intact, say in 875 or 1312AD?
111 posted on 12/11/2002 11:29:53 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: ArrogantBustard; Desdemona
I wonder if in the advent of the invention of the organ, they were questioning the validity of that instrument? I've heard "Bread of Life" by Roc played on the organ by a very talented musician, and no matter how you cut it, it was still the heretical junk I heard played on the guitar.

On the other hand, I heard a classical guitar rendition of "Jesus, My Lord, My God, My All" that was so reverent and splendid it brought tears to my eyes.
112 posted on 12/11/2002 11:33:18 AM PST by ThomasMore
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
In time, the clerical ranks became the repository for those young men who didn't exactly mesh with women as well.

And I want to dig deeper and know why they didn't mesh with women. Is there something about the way morality was taught that to be attracted to a female in one's adolescence was not only sinful but abnormal? And the Virgin Mary was always held up as an example? What was left for young men other than psychological castration to THINK about their sexual urges which could not be suppressed despite the efforts of zealot spiritual masters to do so?

This is merely suppositioning. Other cultural groups don't seem to have this sexual dichotomy or they hide it better. And yet they have, through the centuries, maintained good standards of sexual morality for their sons and daughters. . . or did they really? Why have Jews, as a whole, had fewer breaches of basic morality than Christians (historically and disregarding the last 50 or so years where everybody in the west went more or less haywire about sex)?

In none of this do I deny that it is sinful to engage in innapropriate sexual relationships.

How did homosexuality gain such a foothold in the west? It is rampant in England, as well, within the context of their Anglian heritage.

The above is intended more as questioning than a personal opinion.

113 posted on 12/11/2002 11:34:57 AM PST by Aliska
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To: ThomasMore
How does music become heretical?
114 posted on 12/11/2002 11:39:43 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: stuartcr
How does music become heretical?

The lyrics and intent.

115 posted on 12/11/2002 11:41:16 AM PST by ThomasMore
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To: ninenot
Through the papacy of Pius XII, the church resisted the clamor to accommodate itself to the world and remained a moral beacon to mankind.

The leading Protestant theologian of my generation, R. J. Rushdoony, described the doctrine of papal infallibility as a firewall against modernism -- a firewall that actually held for several generations, until Vatican II. He spoke of this as an achievement that preserved the integrity of the Catholic faith even while the largest protestant denominations were hijacked by apostates.

116 posted on 12/11/2002 11:41:58 AM PST by TomSmedley
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To: ThomasMore
I wonder if in the advent of the invention of the organ, they were questioning the validity of that instrument?

Real musicianship wasn't questioned then either.

I've heard "Bread of Life" by Roc played on the organ by a very talented musician, and no matter how you cut it, it was still the heretical junk I heard played on the guitar.

That's part of the problem with all the stuff written by amatuers. It's still bad, no matter what you do to it.
117 posted on 12/11/2002 11:42:00 AM PST by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona
Real musicianship wasn't questioned then either.

The question then is:

Is the organ, guitar, lyre, harp or cymbal the problem...

or is it the music itself?

118 posted on 12/11/2002 11:47:05 AM PST by ThomasMore
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To: ex-snook
I don't believe the Holy Spirit would provide so many different interpretations of what the Apostles taught as are apparent today. If the Holy Spirit was providing the teaching, there would be only one interpretation.

The Holy Spirit will, indeed, give us the TRUE interpretation of what the Apostles taught.

The question is ... are we listening to the Holy Spirit ... or are we listening to men ?


119 posted on 12/11/2002 11:52:01 AM PST by Quester
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To: ThomasMore
I thought you were talking about a classical guitar rendition vs an organ piece, I saw no reference to lyrics, just music. I would think that the intent of the music would be in the musician, not the notes, or the instrument.
120 posted on 12/11/2002 11:53:39 AM PST by stuartcr
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