Between Science and Spirituality

The Chronicle of Higher Education ^ | Nov. 29, 2002 | John Horgan

[beavus]

Is there a survival instinct in humans?

I will say that my experience with humans is that they will usually go to whatever lengths they can to ensure their survival. If you define "instinct" as an impulse then I suppose this could be called a "survival instinct". I don't have any reason think there is any preprogrammed complex behavior associated with.

At times it fails in place of a person's desire to avoid suffering (the suicidal), or to preserve a greater value (self-sacrifice).

[beavus]

What is 'spirit?'

Incorporeal consciousness.

[Phaedrus]

If you're saying that Horgan shows a less than conservative respect for yesterday's rungs on the "ladder" of tradition, I acknowledge the accuracy of the interpretation ...

I read this as Horgan saying that knowing is a path to being, becomes being, if the "right" path is chosen, and that the perspective from knowing/being is sufficient to obviate the need to dwell on the path. I agree insofar as knowing must move beyond words and I also agree insofar as each path is individual. His "trash" observations say to me that no matter how seemingly superior is any new or greater human perspective, that perspective opens up or makes known new paths toward even more encompassing perspectives. I do think we rely too heavily on the thought of those who have gone before, acknowledging that that gold should be mined -- we should just not stop there. Then again, maybe this "redneck intellectual" had too much dessert after dinner last night ... ;-}

[Phaedrus]

Truly, I hope uprisings will keep this from being costly not just in Iraq but Iran, N. Korea, Syria, Palestine and anywhere terrorism has found a sponsor.

Reading now The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq by Kenneth M. Pollack. From this reading, I conclude that Saddam's first priority is and has always been his personal security. Toward this end he devotes massive resources. The liklihoods seem quite low that his overthrow can be accomplished by an uprising of the Kurds or the Shi'ah in the south, or by coup or assassination.

In the U.N. Security Council, Russia, France and China, for various reasons, all oppose Saddam's overthrow by the U.S. military and they will use the appointment of U.N. inspectors and delaying tactics to prevent it.

Containment has fallen apart and deterrance won't work if he develops a nuclear capability, which he will with time.

The Arab nations in the area, on the other hand, would not oppose the U.S. or U.N. taking him down militarily IF such action were quick, decisive, overwhelming. They will not support continued sanctions, which have lost their teeth in any case.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your post!

The Arab nations in the area, on the other hand, would not oppose the U.S. or U.N. taking him down militarily IF such action were quick, decisive, overwhelming.

Absolutely! That is how it must be.

[Alamo-Girl]

What is 'spirit?' Can we define this term?

I doubt that I can "define" this term to anyone else's satisfaction - but I can describe for you what I know to be true from my personal experience.

My spirit is who I am. It exists apart from, but is associated with, my body. It is not bound by the laws of physics, e.g. it exists outside of space and time. In between the two is my soul, which is my ego, my mind, sense of humor, etc.

When I'm in intense worship, my soul is quieted and my spirit seems "disconnected" from my body, rapturous and free.

[MHGinTN]

Finally, we begin to get back at the reason for the seeming divide between Science and Spirituality ... incorporeal consciousness! Because it is incorporeal, it is extremely hard to reconcile with science which has yet to find a way to measure that which seems non-physical, non-verifiable. I don't think that situation will exist for much longer as physicists uncover more of the complex way dimensional realities (spacetime systems expressing energy quanta for measuring) are interwoven. [Sabertooth's observation of possible spatial variables as yet undiscovered may yield to Kaku's string theory, or something along those lines, and the concept of a mirroring universe --brane theory-- may yet yield understandiing to the way the universe (so far beyond our sensing) functions.

Behavior is currently under investigation through the electromagnetic functions of the brain and the senses, as approached by first identifying the chemical messengers and molecules with which our physical body connects our understanding of the universe around us. The DNA molecule, in its amazing complexity, somehow builds a human being from fundamental physical parts, but human consciousness, because of the non-corporeal aspect, is not limited to the molecular level that we can presently measure. We will get beyond this, perhaps with the next breakthrough in quantum mechanical understanding. Thank you beavus for returning to the essence of this thread.

I don't have any reason (to) think there is any preprogrammed complex behavior associated with (humans). beavus ... that is the key to instinct versus complex consciousness, isn't it? In the animal kingdom leading up to humankind, complex behavioral activity can be programmed in, somehow, with the molecular complexities. But with humans, there appears to be a level of interaction with the universe that is not falsifiable according to current methodology ... we haven't figure out what human consciousness is versus other animal consciousness, thus we have yet to devise ways to quantify and experiment on such a complexity.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the heads up to your post!

I don't have any useful contribution to this discussion, because, to me, the existence of spirit is axiomatic to those who sense it - and unbelievable to those who don't.

I doubt that the laws of physics could apply to the spirit, much like they do not apply within a black hole or in a theoretical alternate universe. Metaphysics lies beyond the ability to apprehend theory.

[cornelis]

Metaphysics lies beyond the ability to apprehend theory.

I tried to figure out what you meant. Can you remove the personification from this to say it again?

[MHGinTN]

Metaphysics will, if we approach the problem correctly, yield to scientific understanding, perhaps. Beyond physics doesn't necessarily mean 'forever'.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post! Here's my attempt to reword:

When a theory is beyond our ability to grasp it solely by empirical means - it becomes the work of Metaphysics (Definition of Metaphysics)

[Alamo-Girl]

Beyond physics doesn't necessarily mean 'forever'.

I agree. When science throws up its collective hands, metaphysics takes over - but that does not mean it necessarily must end there.

[taxed2death]

You've raised an excellent point. You cat is conscious. Some would argue it is not (maybe me....I'll have to mull on that for awhile) because by many peoples definition, consciousness implies a realization of "self".

The "thinker of the thought", if you will.

The book I mentioned near the top of this post delves deeply into this matter in a much more scientific way than say...Depak Chopra has in the past. This is why I find it such a facinating read....much more into the "nuts and bolts" of consciousness and MUCH less esoteric.

[cornelis]

When a theory is beyond our ability to grasp it

This is where i get hung up. A theory, is a means to grasp "it." If a theory is beyond our ability, whose ability promoted the theory?

[MHGinTN]

I've often wonder: on the cellular level, isn't it the molecular direction of DNA that directs the cells to act in concert for organ function?... isn't it 'molecular instinct' that directs organs and thus organs support the organism?... isn't that the case with all living things?... and as animals evolved, behavioral instincts for the organism began to manifest? Is that trend so incorrect to be applied to the advent of the spiritual parameters of the human organism and how that aspect of the human animal raises us above the rest of life on earth?

[cornelis]

When science throws up its collective hands, metaphysics takes over

I'm sorry to be such a bother, but metaphysics is operative whether science throws up its collective hands or not. No science is possible without a metaphysics. That's in Aristotle too.

[MHGinTN]

And that is kind of along my point, a metaphysical theory is beyond our ability to falsify it with experimentation, but that doesn't preclude eventually being able to with a different approach to the problems theorized.

[taxed2death]

It's tough to define.

MY OWN definition of spirituality, that applies ONLY for me I suppose.....is the realization that I am not a central figure in the machinery of the universe, just a cog in the wheel.
This concept involves shovelling a truckload of humility down ones throat on a daily basis.

I consider my self a spiritual person and more-so each day as I gain more knowledge of the "human condition".

I see spirituality in MANY old(er) people.

Some call it "wisdom".

As I mentioned before, I was raised a Christian. To me, although I may not attend church every Sunday, being Christian is an aknowledgement of the desire to be Christ-like in my words and actions.

Believe me! It's NOT EASY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Since I've always had a facination with physics, anything I can read that makes me feel like I'm a piece to the cosmic puzzle is comforting.

Quantum physics is amazing....the fact that there is more space BETWEEN the molecules of my human body than there are molecules that make up my human body causes the fatal "blue screen of death" to occur on my bio-electrical-mechanical hard drive ;)

The fact that the molecules in my body cannot ever truly be destroyed, means that in one form, I have "immortality".

My body is the stuff that stars are made of etc.

Again this is my interpetation and is subject to harsh critisizm from any and all.

[taxed2death]

"I doubt that the laws of physics could apply to the spirit"

See my post #8.

That book will help you along your way :)

[taxed2death]

Interesting.....I guess it's an absolute truth when people say "it's all in the timing"

When, specifically do we reach consiousness, or a feeling of "self"