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Teens criticize 'CHIMP' math (fuzzy math alert)
Times Herald-Record ^ | Dec. 3, 2002 | April Capochino

Posted on 12/04/2002 9:41:55 AM PST by Lizavetta

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To: Lizavetta
The push here is not mathematics, it's to teach group-think. The educational establishment desparately wants to stamp out individualism. People are easier to control as a herd.
21 posted on 12/04/2002 10:39:43 AM PST by dljordan
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To: lelio
For all the bashing in the article, that sample question was actually pretty good. It measures your ability to glean information out of a paragraph and then apply your math skills on it.

The problem with "the problem" is that it tries to get the kids to "learn" something backwards from the way it would normally be done. Specifically, the problem is designed to get the students to "infer" some of the rules (Axioms) of arithmetic from the example given. Of course, in the real world of Mathematics (as taught in decent Universities), the first thing you are given is the Axioms of the MAthematical system you are working in, and then you DEDUCE various principles (Theorems) FROM THE AXIOMS, not the other way around!

In the example, the problem reduces down to the algebraic expression:

((2x + 8)/2) - x)

Which when you apply the axioms for arithmetic, reduces down to

(x + 4) - x

In which the variable "x" always cancels out of the equation, leaving "4" no matter what you started with.

A house is built from the foundation up, not from the roof or living room down. Mathematics works the same way; you start with the axioms (foundation) and derive the rest of the structure therefrom. You don't start from a black box and infer what the rules (axioms) are, which is what this problem is doing.

This problem would be useful ONCE the student has learned the rules of Arithmetic, but is a waste of time as a mechanism for the student to learn the rules.

22 posted on 12/04/2002 10:42:13 AM PST by longshadow
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To: lelio
That really can't be taught in a math class that's limited to teaching "real math."

----------------------------

Few people here under the age of 50 have probably had real "real math" as it was once taught in this country. In 5th grade we measured and calculated the area of the schoolground in acres. In high school I had the problem, "If you drop a ball off a cliff and hear it hit 20 seconds later, how high is the cliff?" With my old math I was able to write a 1,000 line computer program to analyze horse races. I was able to derive some of the fundamenal equations of calculus such as pi Rsquared before reading that chapter in the book. I can derive a Pearson product moment around a curvilinear form.

23 posted on 12/04/2002 10:42:59 AM PST by RLK
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To: Lizavetta
There is an ongoing percentage of teachers who continually want to "revise" mathematics and who are constantly seeking "new" approaches for teaching mathematics, such as in this program.

The reason for this is that these teachers don't like the subject of mathematics, they never have (that's why they became teachers instead of, say, engineers), and consequently they find it difficult and painful to teach. They don't even understand what they are teaching well enough to do so in an interesting way, so the students lose interest.

Of course, from such a teacher's point of view, the problem must be the textbook and the "way" in which the mathematics is being taught, and the textbooks. It couldn't possibly be that the teacher is a bonehead at mathematics. Nope.

24 posted on 12/04/2002 10:44:59 AM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Young Werther
This was always a sticking point for me in school. I simply refused to knuckle under and give in. It got me nothing but bad grades but I persisted through most of High School because I was a kid and I was dumb.

I see the value in it though. As long as you aren't getting full credit simply for putting down the right formula I don't necessarily see a problem.

Learning how particular operations are performed is important. If a teacher sees what their students are doing they can spot trouble areas and adress them. And it helps prevent cheating.

On the ther hand I think some of my annoyance with this system stemmed from teachers who insisted on overly detailed documentation. At some point it just becomes busy work, and I hate busy work with a passion.
25 posted on 12/04/2002 10:45:52 AM PST by MattAMiller
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To: Lizavetta
Anyone want to cross a bridge, or ride an elevator, that these kids had anything to do with???
26 posted on 12/04/2002 10:45:57 AM PST by litehaus
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To: Lizavetta
I really don't want to say much about homeschooling. My daughter-in-law did that for 3 years. They were not using Saxon. My other grandchildren are in public school (small town - makes a difference) and they use Saxon. As a math teacher, I am very concerned - I REPEAT - NO PROBLEM SOLVING - that they are not getting the basic math they need. Their parents are having to supplement Saxon. These are smart kids, and both parents are good in math - electrical enigineer and geologist. Saxon does not meet the criteria needed to learn math - PROBLEM SOLVING.
27 posted on 12/04/2002 10:46:09 AM PST by mathluv
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To: lelio
For all the bashing in the article, that sample question was actually pretty good.

The sample question was a fine word problem for students who have already learned the basic underlying algebra concepts.

I shudder to think what goes on in regular (not the smartest) students' minds if this problem is shoved in their face before they've learned to grasp equations like "x+4=10", however.

28 posted on 12/04/2002 10:47:28 AM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: AUgrad
I diss agree!!

Fuzzy math isn't about correct form but correct answers! Fuzzy math algorythms are used in the auto focus function on you camcorder. Real world correct answers are more important than form! I've seen/created great business models. I've also seen the failure of the enterprise regardless. I worked for a company which used my budget models to chart its course from a $100K/month revenue stream to $30 Million per month. We lost focus and just before a downsizing, (and eventual hostile buy out by the competitor who had forced this issue), our VP of Sales/Marketing owed up to his inattention and stated, "Well, I guess I'll have to give up my Friday Golf Games!!!"

He had mucho salary,commissions and stock options and he fled before the fall. The models were good the execution was crap!

29 posted on 12/04/2002 10:47:32 AM PST by Young Werther
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To: lelio
Creativity can not be taught. Nor can genius, superior athletic ability, or talent of any kind.

Looking at my lightbulb, I can't help but think a fair amount of school taught math skills were involved in it's invention.

Not to be defensive.LOL
30 posted on 12/04/2002 10:49:24 AM PST by conservativemusician
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To: dljordan
The push here is not mathematics, it's to teach group-think.

--------------

Amen. It's converting math to a group-think love-in with people dependent upon each other producing answers equal to the sum of their individual fears and incompetences.

31 posted on 12/04/2002 10:49:39 AM PST by RLK
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To: Young Werther
Your daughter's teacher sounds like the old Nun math teacher I had. What a ball-buster. WAGs were not allowed. I had better show my work. It wasn't about the answer, it was about me knowing how to get the answer. Thank God for that Nun.
32 posted on 12/04/2002 10:50:51 AM PST by stylin19a
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To: Dr. Frank
The reason for this is that these teachers don't like the subject of mathematics, they never have (that's why they became teachers instead of, say, engineers), and consequently they find it difficult and painful to teach. They don't even understand what they are teaching well enough to do so in an interesting way, so the students lose interest.

Sadly this is sometimes true - especially in elementary school. Elementary teachers are often language arts people, not math. I am a math teacher. My son-in-law is an engineer. I love math for being math, he loves math to use it.

The one reason more teachers don't love/teach math is money. After 20 years, my salary as a classroom teacher is less than half of his with less experience.

33 posted on 12/04/2002 10:52:07 AM PST by mathluv
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To: mathluv
I am sick of seeing students counting on their fingers (even in junior high). They have got to learn MATH.

  My niece was having trouble with math (she was in 3rd grade, now 4th), and her mother asked me to help out. One "problem" was that she still used her fingers for math problems. Her mother wasn't too pleased when I encouraged her to continue with this - use the tools you've got at hand, so to speak... Anyway, the trick was, as I saw it, to let her use her fingers, just make the problems more difficult, so you've got to be creative.

  To put this in perspective, I have a doctorate in physics, but I still use my fingers regularly when solving cross products, just to see the right-hand rule. I almost always wrap my fingers around when doing E&M problems to figure out how the magnetic field will affect things, etc. This is common in physics, we see it all the time. I see no reason a grade school student can't use the same tools.

  Anyway, now she's in 4th grade, and we play a game called Nemo. Here's how it goes: Take toothpicks, as many as you want. Make an arbitrary number of piles of toothpicks, with as many as you'd like in each pile (hopefully none more than 31, or you'll need both hands for the solution). On your turn, you may remove as many toothpicks as you would like, but only from a single pile. The winner is the person to pick up the last toothpick.

  Now, if you're good enough at math, adding and multiplying by 2, you can solve the problem right from the beginning, ang guarantee a win. Here's how: For each pile, figure out how many toothpicks are in the pile, and break it down into powers of 2. For instance, a pile with 19 toothpicks would be 16 + 2 + 1, or 2^4 + 2^1 + 2^0. Now, let each finger on your hand represent one of the powers of two - we usually let the thumb be 0, and the pinky 4. Put down each finger represented in that sum. Now move to the next pile, and do the same thing. Only, this time, when you're moving your fingers, put it down if it was up, and up if it was down. For instance, say our second pile has 7 toothpicks, or 4 + 2 + 1, or 2^2 + 2^1 + 2^0. Then, our thumb and index finger, which were down, go back up, and our middle finger, which was up, goes down. Continue this until you have "done" every pile this way.

  If all your fingers are up, and it is your turn, you will lose unless your opponent makes a mistake. Period. If you have any fingers down, you will be able to win. To figure out your move, do the calculation again, excluding the largest group. See which fingers you have down, and use the sum above. That's how many you want to leave in the largest group. So, using the above examples, where we had 19 and 7, we would just do the 7 - leaving out first 3 fingers down. Adding them up leaves 7 (this is a simple example, we usually play with 5-20 piles), so that's how many we want to leave. We remove 12 from the larger pile, leaving 7, and will win the game. In future turns, you always want to leave your opponent with the symmetric solution (all fingers up.) At some point, he will have to leave you with all the toothpicks in 1 pile, which you then pick up and claim victory.

  This makes heavy use of your fingers for doing the math, but you can't just count. My niece plays quite well, and she's also doing great in math now, since she gets so much practice. So don't knock using your fingers...

Drew Garrett

34 posted on 12/04/2002 10:52:20 AM PST by agarrett
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To: *Education News
BTTT
35 posted on 12/04/2002 10:53:47 AM PST by EdReform
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To: RLK
Few people here under the age of 50 have probably had real "real math"

-------------------

Make that 60.

36 posted on 12/04/2002 10:54:39 AM PST by RLK
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To: conservativemusician
I do not believe Edison was taught in a public school. I understand his mother home schooled him.
37 posted on 12/04/2002 10:54:54 AM PST by CyberCowboy777
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To: agarrett
Fingers are/were the first manipulative. I love and use manipulatives for the visual approach in math. My problem with fingers consists of trying to add 2 + 2 with them instead of learning what 2 + 2 is.
38 posted on 12/04/2002 10:58:12 AM PST by mathluv
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To: lelio
Can you imagine the Quadratic Formula put into IMP.
39 posted on 12/04/2002 11:02:36 AM PST by Jack of Diamonds
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To: agarrett
don't dicsount finger counting.......I've seen kids use Chismbop faster than using calculators.
40 posted on 12/04/2002 11:02:39 AM PST by stylin19a
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