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FEDERALISM AND RELIGIOUS LIBERTY: WERE CHURCH AND STATE MEANT TO BE SEPARATE?
Rutgers Journal of Law and Religion ^ | Volume 2, Number 2 - 2001 | Christopher N. Elliott

Posted on 12/02/2002 11:24:22 AM PST by Remedy

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To: justshutupandtakeit
I'm right with you on this. The guy showed flashes of brilliance throughout his life, especially in his philosohpical and oratorical side. But when it came to administering something and preserving it, whether it was his country or his own affairs, he just couldn't do it. He was like the consummate revolutionary who doesn't know what to do once he won and he had a state to manage.
21 posted on 12/02/2002 1:52:02 PM PST by rogerthedodger
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To: jimt
It is irrelevent what it "sounds" like to you. The fact of the matter is the 1st amendment was designed to prevent the formation of an established church like the Angelican church in England. States in the United States, even after the Revolution, often made a church the established church and used their power to tax for support of them. Congregationalist in Mass., Episcopalian in Virginia, Roman Catholic in Maryland etc.

I am not sure what clause you are referring to but Article 6 last clause of the last paragraph reads "...but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." States were still free to require such Tests and some did. Jews and Catholics were not allowed to hold state or local offices in some states.
22 posted on 12/02/2002 1:56:18 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: rogerthedodger
It took him 40 yrs. to build Monticello. Often newly constructed portions were torn down shortly after completion and for years the place was a shambles. That was also his view of government. No completion or strength just constant upheaval and weakness.

Jefferson's ability as an executive was shown by his term of office as governor of Virginia. It was so disastrous and incompetent that he barely escaped impeachment.
23 posted on 12/02/2002 2:00:02 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: justshutupandtakeit
And he died broke, having exhausted all loans from his friends, yet still making sure to keep his wine cellar fully stocked.
24 posted on 12/02/2002 2:04:08 PM PST by rogerthedodger
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To: rogerthedodger
The vast majority of his loans were from the Scottish and English bankers millions of pounds in fact. They were rewarded by having him attack their nation for decades with every imaginable lie.

This most aristocratic of aristocrats spent enormous energy attacking Hamilton, bastard son of a nobody with nothing, as an agent of the aristocrats. What a lie. A lie absolutely Clintonian in its ridiculousness. It is very fitting that Clinton's middle name was Jefferson.
25 posted on 12/02/2002 2:08:47 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: justshutupandtakeit
I think most people are so used to the notion that the Bill of Rights applies to the states through the Incorporation Doctrine, that they don't stop to discern which powers and limitations were intended to apply to the states as opposed to the federal government. Hence, the comment on the religious oaths. By the same token, you could rightly state that the Founders never intended the Second Amendment to apply to the powers of the states to regulate firearms ownership. You'd be pilloried on this website, but you'd be right (and I'm an NRA member, before anyone attacks me for saying this).

I think people also forget how extensive the powers of the government of England were, as well as the powers of the governments of the individual colonies before independence. The Founders knew that it was important that police and welfare powers remain with the states, and left it to the authorities in the states to determine how extensive intrusion on the life of the individual should be.
26 posted on 12/02/2002 2:10:18 PM PST by rogerthedodger
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To: Remedy
Not sure why you posted this address for me?

I live in Colorado Springs and know Dr Noebel and Kevin Bywater personally. I am using their curriculum to teach Bible classes at the Air Force Academy Preparatory School.

Nice to see we frequent some of the same haunts: Summit, STR, etc. I am currently working on a Doctorate in Religious Studies with an emphasis on comparative worldviews, church history, and apologetics. I go to those sites often, along with Probe and Access Research Network.

27 posted on 12/02/2002 2:17:20 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper

I am using their curriculum to teach Bible classes at the Air Force Academy Preparatory School.

OUTSTANDING!

28 posted on 12/02/2002 2:38:56 PM PST by Remedy
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To: justshutupandtakeit
Thanks for your reply. I will have to do further study. I was aware to some small degree about some of his faults, but not to the degree that you espouse. I have to wonder how much is just distortion by his (then and now) critics and how much is fact. Not that any of the Founders were perfect, but I am suspicious of such derogatory (or is it revisionist) history - especially in light of clinton's defender's effort to bring TJ down to the level of WJC.
29 posted on 12/02/2002 4:03:24 PM PST by Badray
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To: justshutupandtakeit
"His reputation was blown up and enhanced by a hired crew of Republican flacks created to destroy the influence of Hamilton. He allowed them to traduce the reputation of Washington while he was in office"

The republicans weren't around until 1854. That's quite a bit later.

30 posted on 12/02/2002 4:14:37 PM PST by spunkets
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To: Remedy
The characterization of the separation of church and state, and the balance between law and religion, is one of enduring confusion in current American constitutional theory and conception.

There's no confusion. It is a long settled issue. The church(es) and the state are seperate.

31 posted on 12/02/2002 8:43:32 PM PST by jlogajan
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To: spunkets
There were two parties at that time: the Democratic Republicans (known as the Republicans) and the Federalist REpublicans (known as the Federalists.) Best know before you try to correct.
32 posted on 12/03/2002 7:10:21 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: Badray
I was always an admirer of Jefferson until I began some extensive research about that era and have been astounded by what the reality of his life actually was. He had many great talents and definitely was a supreme rhetoritician and propagandist. But his actions fell so far below his principles that it is almost unreal.

In his great rivalry with Hamilton there is almost nothing he would not stoop to to destroy him. Hamilton was by far the more profound thinker in every area (except architecture or mechanics.) Jefferson's doctrine of nullification in essence meant nullification of the constitution since it would have meant that we were not one nation under law. Thank God he was out of the country when the document was created and ratified for I fear he would have opposed it to the great detriment of the nation. Madison, at that time, was more Hamiltonian than Hamilton but seemed to go back on almost all his prior beliefs once he fell under the sway of a returned Jefferson.

The greatest heroes in the establishment of the new government were Washington, Hamilton and Adams. With the policies and deep political thought coming from Hamilton and the opposition to most policies coming from Jefferson some of whose actions were almost treasonous if not actually so.
33 posted on 12/03/2002 7:20:46 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: justshutupandtakeit
"There were two parties at that time: the Democratic Republicans (known as the Republicans) and the Federalist REpublicans (known as the Federalists.) Best know before you try to correct."

Democratic-Republicans, or Jeffersonians in this case, is what I'm familiar with. I made the comment with regards to the historical Republican party created in 1854 and the fact the democrats claim the lineage to the Democratic-Republicans.

34 posted on 12/03/2002 9:58:32 AM PST by spunkets
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To: justshutupandtakeit

In his great rivalry with Hamilton there is almost nothing he would not stoop to to destroy him.

 

JEFFERSON VS. HAMILTON Confrontations That Shaped a Nation, Noble E. Cunningham Jr. New York: St. Martin's Press, 2000 186 pp.,

  1. Hamilton, in turn, distrusted the citizenry. Federalists
  2. Hamilton's hopes for America lay in commerce and industry.
  3. Hamilton took up the opposing argument of implied powers, or loose construction.

Jefferson was a Francophile; Hamilton, an Anglophile.

from their first meeting in late 1782 or early '83 until Hamilton's death in 1804. They served together in Washington's cabinet, Hamilton as secretary of the treasury and Jefferson as secretary of state. Consider that in letters to President Washington both of these heroes of the Revolution came perilously close to formally charging the other with treason.

Cunningham's method is uncomplicated. He presents the reader with more than forty documents--consisting mostly of letters, reports, and speeches--in seven chronological chapters. Jefferson's and Hamilton's documents are interwoven so that we see each man proposing arguments and responding to the other's arguments and assertions. Cunningham's interspersed commentary is minimal.

Jefferson was born into the "privileged world of colonial Virginia planters, Hamilton began life in an insecure world in the British West Indies, Hamilton's father deserted the family when he was eleven years old. He had to struggle to achieve the kind of education Jefferson enjoyed as a birthright and had to earn his social position through gallant service as an officer during the Revolution. We might say, then, that Hamilton early had hitched his star to government and rose by the grace of government. Jefferson, on the other hand, served government in the spirit of noblesse oblige.

To his credit, Cunningham does not indulge in such speculation. When he addresses the inevitable question of which of the two was superior, which one was "right" in this historic rivalry, he does so by quoting two other important biographers of Jefferson and Hamilton: Dumas Malone, who favors Jefferson, and Broadus Mitchell, who favors Hamilton.

Malone, in his two-volume Jefferson and the Rights of Man, offers this comparison of the two: "Perhaps that is the real secret of [Jefferson's] eventual political success, as it assuredly is of his enduring fame. He was a true and pure symbol of the rights of men because, in his own mind, the cause was greater than himself." To Malone, Hamilton, however, "comes out of this investigation worse than I expected. ... I cannot escape the conviction that he ... lusted for personal as well as national power."

Mitchell sees the two differently. In his Alexander Hamilton: The National Adventure, 1788--1804, Hamilton was the idealist: "He was in love with the noble ideal of creating a vigorous, expanding nation." Jefferson "heard voices, saw visions, but was far from the stage of devising institutions or finding ways and means of equipping a new social order."

For his part, as a historian of the conflict between Jefferson and Hamilton, Cunningham clearly defines his mission with as much detachment and objectivity as possible. He simply presents us with the evidence in the form of well-chosen primary documents.

The first issue to divide Jefferson and Hamilton as members of Washington's cabinet was how the victorious new nation would finance its war debt. Should the states share equally the burden of the national debt? But what of the states that had already substantially paid their war debt? Would they not, in effect, be punished by such a settlement? Should the debt be paid at once, or should it be financed? The questions were thorny, and as secretary of the treasury, Hamilton championed a solution that was eventually adopted, the formation of a national bank.

One important reason for such a move was that a properly funded national debt "answers most of the purposes of money. Transfers of stock or public debt are the equivalent to payments in specie; or in other words, stock, in the principal transactions of business, passes current as specie." Hamilton then enumerated some of the attendant benefits of having established such stock: "First. Trade is extended by it; because there is a larger capital to carry it on. ... Secondly. Agriculture and manufactures are also promoted by it. ... Thirdly. The interest of money will be lowered by it; for this is always in a ration to the quantity of money, and to the quickness of circulation." The closely argued report was adopted with some modifications over Jefferson's objections--restrained objections, as he promised Hamilton they would be when Hamilton solicited his support.

Later, Jefferson's objections to the national bank grew more vehement as he sniffed out agendas hidden under the cloak of reasoned economic argument. Anti-Federalist that he was, Jefferson saw the national bank as a way for the "monarchists" to strengthen the federal government. In their plans of financing the debt--and, in his view, never paying it off--Jefferson saw a scheme to perpetually hold the states in extortion and thereby control legislation to their benefit.

He claimed to have acquiesced to the idea of a national bank for two reasons. He had been duped by Hamilton into accepting a plan he did not fully understand. And, as he wrote to his son-in-law Francis Eppes, "I see the necessity of sacrificing our opinions sometimes to the opinions of others for the sake of harmony."

To Jefferson, Hamilton was clearly transgressing into his domain as secretary of state. When Washington solicited Jefferson's opinion on the proposed national bank, Jefferson abandoned the restraint he had earlier promised Hamilton. In his Opinion on the Constitutionality of Establishing a National Bank, Jefferson argued that "all powers not delegated to the U.S. by the Constitution, not prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states or to the people (Xth Amendmt.). ... The incorporation of a bank, and other powers assumed by this bill have not, in my opinion, been delegated to the U.S. by the Constitution." A national bank, in other words, was, in Jefferson's opinion, unconstitutional.

. Moreover, Jefferson's argument against the bank opened a further rift between the two regarding a larger, more abstract issue: the complex and contentious point of just how the Constitution itself should be read.

Washington was persuaded by Hamilton and signed the bill to incorporate the bank just two days after receiving the report. In a private letter written five years later, Jefferson's ire was still smoldering.

By 1792 the conflicts between Jefferson and Hamilton involved such fundamental and unresolvable differences that they can be seen as foreshadowing the national horror, still about seventy years in the future, of the Civil War. The Federalists, Jefferson claimed, were scheming to concentrate and centralize political power in America through the establishment of a monarchy that "will form the most corrupt government on earth." Later in the letter he added, prophetically, "I can scarcely contemplate a more incalculable evil than the breaking of the union into two or more parts." But such fracture seemed to Jefferson inevitable when we review the mass which opposed the original coalescence, when we consider that it lay chiefly in the Southern quarter, that the legislature have availed themselves of no occasion of allaying it, but on the contrary whenever Northern and Southern prejudices have come into conflict, the latter have been sacrificed and the former soothed; that the owners of the debt are in the Southern and the holders of it the Northern division.

On the same day, September 9, Jefferson again wrote Washington, this time outrightly naming Hamilton and leveling specific accusations, each carefully elaborated and supported to show that Hamilton, not himself, was to blame for the feud. Whatever else he may have made of the deepening enmity between these two gifted members of his cabinet, Washington surely recognized that, in these exchanges of venomous accusations and counteraccusations, he was witnessing what many political observers had dreaded, the formation of political parties.

In 1796, Washington's vice president, John Adams, defeated Jefferson in a close election and became the second president. Under the constitutional provisions then in place, Jefferson became Adams' vice president. Of all the documents in the final third of Cunningham's book, which covers the period of Jefferson's vice presidency through his presidency (gained in 1800), none are so compelling as those dealing with the Sedition Act, which made its way through Congress in 1797. It too bode ill for preservation of the union.

The act made it unlawful for any persons "to combine or conspire to oppose any lawful measure of the government, to prevent any officer of the United States from performing his duty, or to aid or attempt to procure any insurrection, riot, or unlawful assembly." It also provided punishment of any person for writing, uttering, or publishing "any false, scandalous and malicious writing" against the president, Congress, or the government.

One of the charges that Jefferson had to defend himself against in his September 9, 1792, letter to Washington was that he had brought the poet Philip Freneau to Philadelphia for the express purpose of setting up a newspaper to defame and attack the Federalists. Sensitive, therefore, on the subject of "publishing malicious writing," Jefferson saw the Sedition Act as an attempt to silence Republican newspapers.

He immediately began to think of ways that states might assert their right to declare an act of Congress unconstitutional and void. Working with John Breckinridge, a former Virginian, and members of the Kentucky Assembly, Jefferson drafted the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798, which began with an ominous first point: "Resolved, that the several states composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government." The second point concludes that "the power to create, define and punish such other crimes is reserved, and of right appertains solely and exclusively to the respective states, each within its own territory." The conflict between the rights of the state versus those of the federal government was thus sharply defined. The sovereignty of the state of Kentucky and the authority of the federal government were set at loggerheads.

Following Kentucky's lead, in December 1798 the General Assembly of Virginia also adopted resolutions protesting the Sedition Act. In a letter to Theodore Sedgwick, a Federalist senator from Massachusetts, Hamilton, clearly fed up with Virginia's anti-Federalism, angrily proposed to hold its feet to the fire. A powerful federal force should without delay be brought against Virginia and put that state to "the Test of resistance."

Decades hence, Virginia, home of the capital of the Confederacy, would indeed be put to such a test of resistance over many of the same issues that pitted Jefferson versus Hamilton. And at that event the whole nation would tremble.

35 posted on 12/03/2002 2:01:42 PM PST by Remedy
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To: Remedy
Jefferson's ideas were disastrous particularly that of an agarian society. Hamilton's ideas about the economy and finance were light years ahead of the reactionary ideals J. espoused. He understood that there must be a mixed economy in order for the nation to grow and become strong. Jefferson was convinced we should not have a navy or even domestic shipping because he feared navies led to war. Idiotic thinking but typical.

There are many mistakes in your post with regard to Hamilton. He was not an Anglophile but only believed the English governmental system was the best which had been devised. How could an Anglophile have devoted almost a decade to resisting England with ideas and arms? His father deserted the family when he was 8. He was orphaned at 11 or 12.

His devotion to trying to establish the new nation came at the cost of his ability to earn a fortune which he would have easily done since he was the best lawyer in the nation.
He did not distrust the people but democracies and those who would pander to the people (such as Jefferson.) He insisted at the constitutional convention that the people be directly represented in the House. That such a lie could still have legs is absurd since he spent his youth fighting for a republic (unlike Jefferson who spent that time chasing women in Paris.) He refused Washington's wish to appoint him to the Supreme Court because he could not afford to forgo the income his legal practice brought him.

All the founders, even Madison and Jefferson, accepted the doctrine of implied powers during the 1780s. It was understood that no document could enumerate all the powers of government. ONly when M. and J. swung into opposition did they discover any problem with implied powers. The assumption of the wartime debts was not related to the National Bank they are different issues altogether. Hamilton worked out a deal with J. to accomodate the states which had paid off their debts or which had merely defaulted on them.

Malone's comment about Hamilton's lust for power is sheer bullshit. Had he had such a lust what could have been easier than for him to flatter the mob, as J. and Burr did constantly, and court public opinion? After all he was the most well read of any of the founders writing hundreds of articles for the newspapers from the time he was a teenager. His ideas for the constitution were not exactly what was adopted yet no man did more to have it ratified. Personal power was what those opposed to the constitution were trying to protect not Hamilton.

As regards J. being "duped" by H. if that were so then he was not as smart as I think he was. It was just a lie he spread to quiet his allies. In fact, the deal which allowed him to become president was made when he promised to keep the financial system in place. Without this the Lousiana purchase would not have been possible. J. believed it unconstitutional anyway.

Jefferson's hypocrisy about the rights of man is monumental. Hamilton, in stark contrast, never owned slaves and founded a manumission society to free slaves and did legal work to help escapees retain their freedom. This was one of the major reasons the Slaverocrats hated him so much.

Jefferson did not understand the constitution and his Resolutions indicate that very clearly. As does his running dispute with John Marshall. No man understood the constitution better than Marshall and his friend, Alexander Hamilton, not even Madison. When Jefferson entered the lists used reason against Hamilton he inevitably lost. Hamilton's opinion on the constitutionality of the Bank was a masterpiece and clearly shows why the Bank was part of the implied powers of the government. Defeats such as this were the reason J. called H. a "host without numbers." No one could win a debate with him certainly not a J. who could barely speak and hated confrontation. Of course, having ridiculous ideas about the "monarchists" didn't help convince any but rabid screwballs.

Washington abhored the idea of disunion and used his farewell address to argue against it. That was the main thrust of the document not foreign affairs and it was written by H.

At the same time J. is writing W. about H.'s engendering the feud he is paying Phillip Freneau to slander H. and W. while
working for the Dept. of State. W. came to trust H. more in foreign affairs than J. because of J. support of anti-American forces in France and anti-government forces at home.

The Alien and Sedition Acts were opposed by H. and used as an excuse by the Republicans. States had more draconian laws on the books. Laws used by J. and his followers after the A&S acts lapsed to prosecute federalist editors.

The Civil War was J.'s legacy and for that he is to be forever damned.

I have to go and can't proof this so forgive any errors.
36 posted on 12/03/2002 3:07:52 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: Remedy
With that long read, for a minute there I thought this was a bash confederates thread, sorry remedy, wasn't WLAT after all. lol
37 posted on 04/16/2003 12:02:06 PM PDT by DeathfromBelow
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To: Remedy

bttt


38 posted on 08/16/2004 4:40:35 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Remedy

bttt


39 posted on 12/21/2005 6:51:37 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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