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Texas Sodomy Law Challenge in Supreme Court
Reuters ^ | Dec 2, 2002 | staff

Posted on 12/02/2002 10:18:20 AM PST by polemikos

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To: Station 51
You're confusing "normal" with "common".

For example, cancer is common, but it is not normal.

81 posted on 12/02/2002 12:34:54 PM PST by polemikos
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To: All
Seems to me the easiest solution if you don't like the law is don't live in Texas. If you live in Texas and don't want to leave, ask your state rep to introduce a bill to repeal the law. Since the constitution is silent, and therefore relinquishes this matter to the state OR the people, why does SCOTUS even get a word in?

I think it would be great if we had a less intrusive SCOTUS which would allow us to move to states that attracted more people we like to be around.

82 posted on 12/02/2002 12:35:43 PM PST by Mr. Bird
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To: A Navy Vet
Face it Hank, there is NO reason for a law to prevent consenting adults from sex acts behind closed doors.

The law ISN'T preventing anyone from doing anything behind closed doors. That's the point. It's used to stop crimes

Let's draw a parallel. Let's say it is against the law for a minor to possess cigarettes. If Doris asks her 14 year-old son to bring her a pack of Winstons, is he breaking the law? Technically, yes. Should we get rid of the law because of it? No.

You are freaking out over something that isn't happening. You should worry about the nany stuff that IS happening.

83 posted on 12/02/2002 12:36:57 PM PST by AppyPappy
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To: monday
The constitution was written to proscribe the powers of government in order to prevent oppression. Just because certain activties are not listed in the Bill of Rights doesn't mean they should be prohibited.

Indeed. But it was written to limit the powers of the Federal government, not state government. The extension of the Bill of Rights to state government was via the 14th amendment, and that extension clearly does not encompass the 10th amendment, which explicitly *cedes* to the states and to the people powers not reserved to the Feds.

I'm no fan of sodomy laws, but the arenas to debate them are state courts and state legislatures. The founders' answer to people who didn't like the way their state was governed was - move!

84 posted on 12/02/2002 12:38:50 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: polemikos
You're confusing "normal" with "common".

FWIW, you're confusing "normal" with "normative" - not that this has much bearing on whether this particular statute should get overturned.

85 posted on 12/02/2002 12:38:56 PM PST by AntiGuv
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To: monday
Unless they have pictures it is going to be hard to prove.

Exactly, if they monkey with the law, the gays will be playing Pied Piper in the parks and getting off with technicalities.

If they would quit doing it in public, we wouldn't have the law. There would be no need for the law. When the black helicopter start buzzing your house looking for sodomy, let me know and I'll scream with you.

86 posted on 12/02/2002 12:40:23 PM PST by AppyPappy
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To: polemikos
Either way, somethings gotta give.

Something already gave. The constitution. It's used as toilet paper by almost everyone. It only depends on their pet likes and dislikes where they violate it. And rights in general are on the run almost everywhere.

87 posted on 12/02/2002 12:40:41 PM PST by Protagoras
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To: AntiGuv
you're confusing "normal" with "normative"

Only if you're willing to define inappropriate behavior as the norm. I'm not.

not that this has much bearing on whether this particular statute should get overturned.

At issue in the post by station51 was the definition of "normal" behavior. It doesn't appear that "normative" behavior was ever at issue (or at least I hope not ;-)
88 posted on 12/02/2002 12:47:58 PM PST by polemikos
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To: AppyPappy
From the article

"The U.S. Supreme Court said on Monday it would decide a challenge to a Texas law that makes it a crime for gays and lesbians to have consensual sex in their own homes, agreeing to consider overruling its 1986 decision that upheld state sodomy laws."

From
http://www.sodomylaws.org/usa/texas/txnews74.htm

"The Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund announced Thursday it will likely appeal to the United States Supreme Court a case brought against two Houston men who were arrested on sodomy violations for having sex in a private apartment." & "John Lawrence and Tyron Garner were arrested and put in jail for 24 hours on a misdemeanor charge of deviate sexual intercourse after police responded to a false burglary tip called in by an embittered ex-lover of one of the men."

From Houston Chronicle, November 3, 2002 as posted at
http://legalminds.lp.findlaw.com/list/queerlaw/msg04864.html

" WASHINGTON - Responding to a "weapons disturbance" tip one fall night in 1998, Harris County deputies burst into John Lawrence's Pasadena apartment to find Lawrence having sex with another man.
The gun report was bogus. But police handcuffed Lawrence and his partner, Tyron Garner, and hauled them off to jail in their underwear.
The two men were charged with violating Texas' Homosexual Conduct Law."


Google link for more info:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=texas+sodomy+law&btnG=Google+Search

Google is you friend.


Did you even read the linked article? Unless you are God you don't know everything so I suggest that you read the articles in the future before posting about them. It just takes a minute or two.

89 posted on 12/02/2002 12:49:44 PM PST by Karsus
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To: AppyPappy
"It's used to stop crimes."

You just made my point. Why should sodomy or oral sex be a "crime" between consenting adults in their private home? "Let's draw a parallel. Let's say it is against the law for a minor to possess cigarettes. If Doris asks her 14 year-old son to bring her a pack of Winstons, is he breaking the law? Technically, yes. Should we get rid of the law because of it? No."

Pretty weak parallel since the other party is a minor.

"You are freaking out over something that isn't happening. You should worry about the nany stuff that IS happening."

Freaking out? Hardly. But I am concerned that ANY nanny law exists.
Solution: increase the public decency law penalties, but don't tell me what I can and cannot do in my home if it doesn't impact the rights of others.

90 posted on 12/02/2002 12:53:35 PM PST by A Navy Vet
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To: polemikos
Only if you're willing to define inappropriate behavior as the norm. I'm not.

Your qualification of impropriety involves the question of social norms, not universal normalcy per se.

At issue in the post by station51 was the definition of "normal" behavior.

station51's comment is rather clearly addressing the question of "normative" behavior despite the fact that he expressed the same common verbal misconception as yourself.

91 posted on 12/02/2002 12:54:35 PM PST by AntiGuv
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To: Emmylou
Let's replace one perversion with another:
"So you do think the law against incest ought to be overturned, since it outlaws behavior even behind closed doors. First, the incestuous didn't 'create' this problem, the Texas legistature did. Those who enjoy incest want to be treated equally under the law, not 'create' problems. Second, how can two unrelated people have sex and not commit a crime but father and daughter do the same and it's a felony? LOL, you've got an interesting point if you think the laws, discrimination and social stigma against those who practice incest are caused by the incestuous themselves. Sheesh."
Sheesh indeed. Statute law is based upon natural law. Under natural law, sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex, between persons and animals, or between close relatives are forbidden. With this in mind, the government has every right to regulate private sexual conduct when such conduct violates natural law and those laws established by statute.

May I assume you are not in favor of legalzing incest? Well, if society has the right to forbid incest -- even when privately practiced between consenting adults -- it has the right to forbid sodomy under the same conditions.

92 posted on 12/02/2002 12:56:05 PM PST by B-Chan
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To: AppyPappy
Irrelevant. They aren't using the law against people in their own homes. It's being used against people who feel the need to do it in public.

Where the hell do you think these two were arrested??
I'll tell you where - in their own bedroom! The cops burst in without a warrant and without probable cause and arrested them. The cops were there because of a bogus prowler call from someone else.

93 posted on 12/02/2002 12:56:44 PM PST by clamboat
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To: A Navy Vet
Face it Hank, there is NO reason for a law to prevent consenting adults from sex acts behind closed doors.

What about incest? Is that okay?

94 posted on 12/02/2002 12:57:44 PM PST by B-Chan
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To: A Navy Vet
Why should sodomy or oral sex be a "crime" between consenting adults in their private home?

As much as a minor smoking in the privacy of his own home should be a crime. If the gays would stop having sex in public, we wouldn't need this law. Period.

95 posted on 12/02/2002 12:59:39 PM PST by AppyPappy
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To: B-Chan
What about incest? Is that okay?

That is one of the better-constructed strawman arguments I have seen lately. There are compelling reasons to not allow incest - namely, the profound genetic problems that could result from a child created from such a union. Gay sex doesn't have that problem, for obvious reasons.

96 posted on 12/02/2002 1:00:29 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: AppyPappy
If the gays would stop having sex in public, we wouldn't need this law. Period.

There are laws against public heterosexual sex as well. You don't need a blanket prohibition against sodomy to legislate against public gay sex.

97 posted on 12/02/2002 1:01:29 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: B-Chan
What about incest? Is that okay?

Why should it not be? I'm certainly not endorsing the legalization of incestuous behavior, but I'm curious as to your rationale for its prohibition..

98 posted on 12/02/2002 1:02:00 PM PST by AntiGuv
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To: AntiGuv
Your qualification of impropriety involves the question of social norms, not universal normalcy per se.

Au contraire. Your effort to define deviant behavior as normative is a contradiction in terms.
99 posted on 12/02/2002 1:02:51 PM PST by polemikos
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To: B-Chan
Statute law is based upon natural law. Under natural law, sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex, between persons and animals, or between close relatives are forbidden.

Where in the Constitution is this?
100 posted on 12/02/2002 1:03:30 PM PST by BikerNYC
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