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To: Oberon
Our reason proceeding from our biology -- subjective reason -- has no bearing on universal truths -- objective reason.

Before addressing your subsequent comments, I've got to deal with this misconception. Without God in the universe, you have no basis to claim that there are "universal truths."

Premise: There is no God.

Therefore: Because there is no God, human beings are not creations.

Therefore: Because human beings are not creations, human beings must be an accidental product of physics and chemistry.

Therefore: Because human beings are accidental products of physics and chemistry, what we call "reason" is nothing more than a competitive adaptation.

Therefore: Because "reason" is nothing more than a competitive adaptation, it can only apply in the context of human survival (just as other specialized animal behavior applies only to their survival). In other words, Man's "reason" works for him, just like coyote's howling works for coyotes.

Conclusion: Man's conception of "objective reason" applies to the universe in which we live just as much as (and in like manner, and no more than) the coyote's howling.

Your conclusion addresses man's relation to the existence of objective reason in a Godless universe -- it doesn't discount the existence of objective reason in a Godless universe.

My point was that man's degree of understanding of objective reason or universal truths has little bearing on the concept that there is universal truth -- even in a Godless universe. I never said that in a stipulated Godless universe, man does possess objective reason although I will make the point that mankind does have the potential to evolve torward objective reason.

So then, we don't disagree on this, else where is your argument that addresses the specific point that I make.

...Also you do short-change in your above "therefores" the possibility that competition and adaption is benifitted by the selective possession of objective reason or at least by the selective possession of some components of objective reason. Thus even in a Godless universe the evolution torward objective reason by mankind should not be discounted -- components of which we may possess today and components of which makes mankind's reasoning more evolved than the coyote's howl. Even in a stipulated Godless universe.

Now can you answer for me how you can prove the existance of God and the goodness of God in a universe where there is no objective reason and in a universe where everything is subjective?

183 posted on 12/03/2002 6:27:32 PM PST by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign
Your conclusion addresses man's relation to the existence of objective reason in a Godless universe -- it doesn't discount the existence of objective reason in a Godless universe.

My point was that man's degree of understanding of objective reason or universal truths has little bearing on the concept that there is universal truth -- even in a Godless universe. I never said that in a stipulated Godless universe, man does possess objective reason although I will make the point that mankind does have the potential to evolve torward objective reason.

All right... I can see that a clarification of terms is necessary. Let's look at "reason." Reason is the ability to think. Being the ability to think, reason is a process that exists within the human brain.

That's why I kept reminding you that there's no God in the universe I've postulated. Because if there is Reason, an idealized objective Reason to which Man aspires, then it immediately follows that there must also be a Reasoner.

Because I postulated at the outset that there is no God, however, we have ruled out the Reasoner. And without Him, we have no reason whatsoever to think that reason exists anywhere except within our own heads... unless you recognize the reason of animals. Doing so points to reason as a brain function of the higher animals rather than a metaphysical reality.

191 posted on 12/04/2002 1:09:30 PM PST by Oberon
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