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Finnish investigator (of "Racak Massacre") Helena Ranta to testify at Milosevic trial
helsinki-hs.net ^ | Tuesday 26.11.2002 | Helsingin Sanomat

Posted on 11/26/2002 8:36:55 AM PST by Destro

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To: Wraith
Leggo my eggo.

Whatever.

41 posted on 12/16/2002 1:26:02 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
Hoplite, this the end, and this will be my very last post to you. I see no point in our exchanging posts in future. I once had respect for you and appreciated your useful links. You have now become shrill and illogical, lashing out when no lashing out is warranted.

I was actually being nice to you when I said "in association with" could be interpreted as "adhered to". Look up "in association with" in your handy-dandy thesaurus and you will see it means exactly what I took it to mean. I still seriously doubt that human material was found adhered those bullets. Perhaps you can continue your education in forensic science to find out why I doubt it. It's simple science.

You refuse to comment on, or even acknowledge the Finnish ballistics analyses, yet you could have a field day with those findings supporting your premise that the Serb police did in fact gun down those 23 men. You hurt your own cause by ignoring them.

You are not interested in finding the truth, nor even in looking at all the facts so far as they might relate to supporting your pet theory. You pick and choose what is convenient to you and ignore the rest.

You keep accusing me of lying. Although when I have asked you where and how I have lied, you give no answer. I have never, ever intentionally lied about anything, and I think everyone here knows that. I don't think even Torie or Trop would ever think such a thing of me.

I have been unfailingly polite to you, and you come back with unsubstantiated accusations and nastly insults. If that's your game, then play it with someone else. I've had it with you. And, I must confess, I once thought better of you and am bitterly disappointed in you.

You are bound and determined that everything happened in Racak the way Clinton said it did, despite what HRW's witnesses say, and despite what the Finnish ballistics experts say. I am keeping an open mind. So let's agree to disagree and completely leave each other alone. I am entirely done with you.

42 posted on 12/16/2002 3:35:41 PM PST by wonders
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To: getoffmylawn; Wraith; Torie; Dinsdale Piranha
Ping to my #42 and best regards
43 posted on 12/16/2002 3:53:11 PM PST by wonders
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To: Torie; Dinsdale Piranha
I pinged you to that post because I think it only proper etiquette that when one mentions other posters in one's post, one should alert those fellow posters so they can speak for themselves if they wish.
44 posted on 12/16/2002 4:01:21 PM PST by wonders
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To: Hoplite; wonders; Fusion; vooch; getoffmylawn
Not much to say? Good, you have finally learned some restraint without your normal B.S. Now you are to write a 1000 word essay on how to be humble if you are to shake the "WHIPPING BOY" handle and maybe get a friend on FR one day.

Wonders seems to have given you the punt. Another potential friend turned off. Who to argue with next? Must be very stressful for you? I will leave you with your personalities. Good Luck Whipping Boy.

45 posted on 12/16/2002 5:57:59 PM PST by Wraith
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To: wonders
wow !......for the most patient of people (ie wonders) to finally give up on working with someone (ie Hoplite) is a damning comment on H.

but Sarg. you may have mistaken Hoplite for a simple Freeper. He is manifestly not a Freeper, instead as many of us have observed, he appears to be a paid 'webadvocate' for one of the policy groups. His line is agit-prop, not discourse.

46 posted on 12/16/2002 9:03:13 PM PST by vooch
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To: vooch; Wraith
vooch: I know that a number of FReepers think that, vooch, but doesn't this "policy group" have better things to do with their money? Why should they care what a few FReepers think? It's mostly the same little bunch of us on these Balkans threads, anyway. Also, if that were true, his boss would do well to replace him. Hurling insults left and right hardly wins people over to a cause. Ignoring evidence which could be used in favour of that group's line is also a big boo-boo.

Wraith: "THE WHIPING BOY" I know it's just a typo (and I make lots of those myself!) but it's too funny to pass over. It conjures up quite a mental image!

47 posted on 12/17/2002 4:33:22 AM PST by wonders
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To: wonders
HRW uses paid 'webadvocates'. They have even placed adverts in The Economist
48 posted on 12/17/2002 5:29:57 AM PST by vooch
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To: vooch
Really? I didn't know that! Learn something new every day here on FR.

Hehehehe, I'll have to find what we did with our last issues of The Economist and have a look-see. Maybe I can become a mole. Just kidding, of course, but you know my opinion of HRW. No wonder they need "webadvocates".

No, I don't think it could be HRW. The Finnish ballistics analyses actually support the claims of HRW's witnesses, yet he refuses to acknowledge them and insists it all happened just like Slick said. Maybe the Clinton Legacy Foundation is more like it.

49 posted on 12/17/2002 6:04:36 AM PST by wonders
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To: wonders; vooch; Hoplite
All in all like Wonders said, its a sad thing. Hoplite it seems was focused on one thing and that was to discredit, nothing more. The idea of wanting to learn the truth was nothing more than a waste of cyberspace and unfortunately our time. Hoplite has accomplished nothing but to alienate himself and if his job was to simply change peoples opinions he has failed miserably. Every encounter Hoplite has entered into has ended up with insults and very unnecessary.

Generally speaking I was not kidding when I was said that people with low esteem are governed by the ego. It is the ego that can be very offensive, can not be wrong and most of all will not admit being wrong. IF someone finds they are continuously fighting with everyone in their lives most of the time, reverts to insulting people who do not share their point of view, yelling at the traffic ,the family, the dog, their is a problem and it has to do with issues of low esteem. It is quite a problem out there in the world and a lot of people do not understand the dynamics of it and why it is happening.

If this can be seen as a positive note I would recommend a book titled "MAKE PEACE WITH ANYONE" by a New York Times Best-selling author called David J. Lieberman P.H.D.. This is not intended as a putdown but simply information of an amazing book that will give any individual a fresh lease on life and the ability to change negative relationships back into a positive ones. Really helped a good friend of mine.

50 posted on 12/17/2002 7:55:02 AM PST by Wraith
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To: vooch; wonders; Wraith
I always suspected he may be connected to this organization. Anna Husarska even resorts to insults in a similar way when confronted with someone that is of a different opinion.
51 posted on 12/17/2002 7:42:02 PM PST by getoffmylawn
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To: getoffmylawn
Indeed his line is a mirror of the racist war monerging ICG ( which has lately morphed into the IJC )
52 posted on 12/18/2002 4:48:19 AM PST by vooch
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To: getoffmylawn; vooch
Guys, I really do appreciate you. Truly. At the same time, I don't care what motivates Hoplite (although I tend to think it's a personal thing with him). I am done with him. And when I'm done with someone, I'm done. Finis.
53 posted on 12/18/2002 2:41:56 PM PST by wonders
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To: wonders
I see no point in our exchanging posts in future.

Then I'll put you next to Vooch, Destro, Fusion, and Wraith in the lying Serb Nationalist by proxy category and we can ignore each other happily.

His name was Fikret Alic, and he was suffering from imprisonment at the hands of sadistic thugs who you are now in the business of rehabilitating.

Danish doctors found him in a terrible state. His weight had fallen from 13.5 stone to 7 stone. Six of his ribs were broken, as was his lower jaw.

All his teeth had been kicked out or had fallen out owing to malnutrition; his nose was broken; he had a fractured skull and more than 100 scars from stabs, cuts and burns.

No matter - I'm sure tuberculosis or Marfan syndrome can be held responsible for all his injuries, right Wonders?

Shame on you, Wonders - you lie, whether you are competent to realize it or not, and serve a discredited, ignoble cause. There is no rationalization and there can be no excuse.

Shame on you.

P.s., don't bother looking in that box in your basement, we both know what it says, and now that Joan has quoted your faulty memory in one of her posts, thus giving it fully developed wings, it doesn't matter any more, does it? Another lie born, and you were there - congratulations, Mom. You may now join Vooch with her 1988 PPP lies, Destro with his "Slobo was fighting Al Quaeda" lies, Fusion with pretty much everything he posts, and Wraith with his 3rd KVM team stopped by the KLA.

I would say something about you being associated with them, but you have rather conclusively demonstrated you don't understand that concept. C'est la vie.

Being done with someone is so liberating, isn't it?

54 posted on 12/18/2002 4:26:23 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
Your source wrongly identifies him as a Croat:

"Last week Alic, unrecognisable as the 22-year Croat prisoner of the Serbs 10 years ago, said that time would heal, but the scars remain."

They also attributed malnutrition to his teeth falling out, but "Alic had been at the camp for nine days when journalists stumbled upon him."

I think it takes a whole lot more time than "9 days" for malnutrition to affect the teeth, so if his teeth did fall out due to malnutrition it might be because of some disease he'd had for years or lifelong. Also, a person doesn't go from a normal weight to that thin in just nine days.

Further, there's no evidence of scars, stabs, cuts and burns on any of the men. No evidence that he had been beaten in the head. None of the men show wounds nor is there any evidence on their clothing.

The report also doesn't mention how long after the photo was taken that he left the refugee camp, nor when exactly he arrived in Denmark.

55 posted on 12/20/2002 2:10:34 PM PST by joan
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To: joan
Before being sent to Trnopolje, Fikret Alic was held in Keraterm.

Another vacation paradise spot per you, I'm sure.

The fact of the matter is, Joan, North Western Bosnia had two large cities that didn't suffer much in the way of fighting, Banja Luka and Prijedor. In order to depopulate these two cities of their non-Serb residents, and handle the flow of deportees from their homes in smaller municipalities and villages, the Serbs set up a system of camps through which the non-Serb residents could be processed and stripped of their property, valuables, and for quite a large number, their lives. In essence, Bosnia's Serb leadership modeled it's behaviour on that of those whom they feared the most, and as they rightly detested and vilified their tormenters from 40 years ago, the Serbs who set up the camp system in Bosnia in the 1990's deserve no different today.

Fikret's treatement at the hands of his captors is addressed in both the Zigic and Sikirica cases at the ICTY.

I'd suggest you visit those documents and read about it, but I'm sure you're waiting for the RSK's trials of it's war criminals to commence so you can get the full picture.

Yeah, and monkeys might fly out of your butt.

56 posted on 12/20/2002 2:56:38 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
Prijedor, huhh?... You do not know jack about Prijedor.
57 posted on 12/20/2002 3:28:34 PM PST by smokegenerator
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To: Hoplite
"Before being sent to Trnopolje, Fikret Alic was held in Keraterm."

Where is it said he was in Keraterm?

58 posted on 12/20/2002 3:30:12 PM PST by joan
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To: joan
I could have sworn I already told you where.

Oh, look - I did.

59 posted on 12/20/2002 3:43:57 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: joan; Kate22
I caught all the stuff about "Croat" and "nine days" etc., too. Still, the man was obviously badly mistreated. You are also correct about the lack of photographic evidence as to his torture at the time the famous video was made.

When this whole thing broke few years ago, I was skeptical about the info LM gave about the words of Mehmet. I mean,the guy may have been scared to say what it was really like in Trnopolje. I've been in such situations myself, where the people are afraid to say what's really going on, for fear of retribution, so they say very much the same things this guy is saying while doing things with their eyes to try to signal to you that something is very wrong and please look into it. Without seeing the actual footage, and Mehmet's face, I just can't guess.

Anyway, if you check here, you may find some interesting clues as to what befell the unfortunate Mr. Alic.

Among them: Within two weeks of the film of the Trnopolje camp being aired to the world, Paddy Ashdown, leader of the British Liberal Democratic Party, visited Trnopolje, and gave a substantially different opinion of the camp and its 'inmates':

They have gathered here because they have to go somewhere. Their houses have been burnt and their lives threatened. Muslim extremists pressurised the men to join up with the guerrillas, so they have come here for safety. But on most recent nights the unprotected camp [author's italics] has been raided by Serbian extremists who beat them, rob them of what little they have left and, it is claimed, rape the women. Things are better now.

Well, I don't know the situation in the area at that time. If the Serbs who ran Trnopolje realised that marauding gangs of "Serbian extremists" were roaming the area, and if they had the manpower to post some guards against them... there is certainly culpability there. I just don't know the answers to all the "ifs" here.

A little note on these types of things: Whenever and wherever there is a civil war and displacement of population, such places as Trnopolje come into play. They are ever and always targets of marauders in the area. It certainly happened in the Thai refugee camps set up for Cambodian refugees. In our own War Between the States it happened (the marauders were known as "bushwackers" then). It happens across time and all over the world. Sad, but true.

Anyway, I think terrible things happened to poor Mr. Alic and others like him. And I hope the perpetrators will someday be brought to justice for them.

In the end, what really frosts me is the likening of Trnopolje to Bergen-Belsen. Cheap sensationalism, and irrevocable cheaping of the Holocaust. Creating the impression that a very ugly civil war was the same as the Holocaust.

The truth is, whenever a civil war happens, horrors abound. This particular civil war might have been prevented. Might. Too bad Zimmerman whispered in Alia's ear, and too bad he listened, huh?

Kate, I pinged you because I mentioned your fave guy -- Paddy A$$down.

60 posted on 12/20/2002 7:26:45 PM PST by wonders
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