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To: Alamo-Girl
LOL! If we are guessing what a "tree" drawn from genetic evidence might look like, my guess is a lawn.

As edsheppa and Dr. Stochastic have said, this has already been thoroughly falsified. If you only listen to the selective lawyering from your side about the places where the data conflict, you could easily miss this. (Especially on this forum.) Nevertheless the overall picture is very plain.

The Convergence of Molecular and Cladistic Trees.

Figure 4.4.1. Human endogenous retrovirus K (HERV-K) insertions in identical chromosomal locations in various primates (Reprinted from Lebedev et al. 2000, © 2000, with permission from Elsevier Science).

24 posted on 11/23/2002 8:38:13 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro; Doctor Stochastic; edsheppa; LiteKeeper; Fiddlstix; AndrewC
Many thanks to all of you for your posts!

I had no idea using the term "lawn" would generate such a lively discussion. Jeepers!

I am aware that a device known as "the Tree of Life" is used in the Kabala (new age version) and Tarot reading. My understanding is the Kabala originally was rooted from the Torah (Spanish) and of course the Tree of Life is mentioned in Genesis and Revelation as being in the center of Eden and Paradise respectively. That's one reason why I believe Eden is in the spiritual realm - but I digress...

Several of you seem to believe my "lawn" choice has already been disputed. But I'm not convinced by your assertions. I visualized a "lawn" when I saw this article:

What it really means to be 99% chimpanzee (excerpts:)

We are accustomed to imagining scales of similarity ranging from 100% similar – that is to say, identical – to 0% similar, that is to say, totally different. This is the conceptual framework within which we interpret the 98.6% or whatever similarity of human and ape. They are really, really similar, almost identical.

But in fact, DNA similarity is not structured in quite that way. There are, as everyone knows, only 4 bases in DNA. And this places an odd statistical constraint on the comparison of sequences. No DNA similarity at all – that is to say, two random sequences that share no common ancestry – are still going to match at one out of four sites. In other words, the zero mark of a DNA comparison is not zero percent similar, but 25% similar.

Once again, the DNA comparison requires context to be meaningful. Granted that a human and ape are over 98% genetically identical, a human and any earthly DNA-based life form must be at least 25% identical. A human and a daffodil share common ancestry and their DNA is thus obliged to match more than 25% of the time. For the sake of argument let’s say 33%.

The point is that to say we are one-third daffodils because our DNA matches that of a daffodil 33% of the time, is not profound, it’s ridiculous. There is hardly any biological comparison you can make which will find us to be one-third daffodil, except perhaps the DNA.

In other words, just as Simpson argued in the 1960s, the genetic comparison is exceptional, not at all transcendent. DNA comparisons overestimate biological similarity at the low end and underestimate it at the high end – in context, humans are biologically less than 25% daffodils and more than 98% chimpanzees.

The focus on base-pair mismatch itself is misleading, for it encodes a number of archaic assumptions about genetics and evolution. In fact, it ignores what is quite possibly the most significant development in biology in the last quarter-century – namely, the complexity of genome structure.

If humans and chimpanzees are over 98% identical base-for-base, how do you make sense of the fact that chimpanzees have 10% more DNA than humans? That they have more alpha-hemoglobin genes and more Rh bloodgroup genes, and fewer Alu repeats, in their genome than humans? Or that the tips of their chromosomes contain DNA not present at the tips of human chromosomes?

Obviously there is a lot more to genomic evolution than just nucleotide substitution. But the percentage comparison renders that fact invisible, and thus obscures some of the most interesting evolutionary genetic questions.

Once you recognize that there are easily identifiable differences genetically between humans and chimpanzees – the presence of terminal heterochromatin is 100% diagnostic – you can begin to see that the pattern of relationships between the species is actually the same genetically as anatomically. Humans and chimps are simply very similar to, yet diagnosably different from, one another.


31 posted on 11/23/2002 10:30:42 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: VadeRetro
Actually, the section of the document I linked is slightly off of the topic I advertised for it. Convergence of Independent Phylogenies.
59 posted on 11/23/2002 3:26:27 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
Not true Vade and you know it. First of all there is in itself no convergence of evolutionary trees. Just about every evolutionist draws a different tree. Second of all, there is no gene which proves such relationships. Mitochondrial DNA was sought as the answer, but it has been shown to give completely different trees than expected by evolutionists. So as far as it goes at present, the molecular evidence disproves the 'evolutionary tree'.
107 posted on 11/24/2002 7:10:21 AM PST by gore3000
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To: VadeRetro
By golly, if you turn it on its side, it does kind of look like a lawn.
335 posted on 11/25/2002 7:00:00 AM PST by MEGoody
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