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To: Matchett-PI
Finally an interesting discussion!

With regard to sovereignty I can posit at least four distinct religions:

1. Single God separate from physical universe which we are part of. If I believe that this God created me and the wonderful universe I live in then I become humbled and I bow to his sovereignty by regularly thanking him for his creation and by trying to conform my life to what I believe his will to be.

2. Multiple Gods separate from physical universe which we are part of. If I believe that these Gods worked sometimes in unison and sometimes at odds to create me and the wonderful universe I live in then I become humbled and I bow to their sovereignty. However, rather than trying to conform my life to ALL of the sometimes conflicting wishes of these Gods, I must pick and choose which Gods I believe to be most helpful to me and follow their will. I may get crushed by God A for following the will of God B, but so be it: I cast my lots and see how they fall.

3. Single God of which the universe and I are part. Because I am part of God I share partly in his perfection. I can not really talk about sovereignty, but rather more of collegiality. I am working with the other parts of God to realize the ultimate goals of God. I am humbled because I am only a bit of God, but I am also somewhat proud because of my direct association with an infinite being.

4. No God, only universe. Even in this case, if I have half a brain in my head, I need to be humbled by my relative place in the Cosmos. It is huge and I am small. Like the case of pantheism (universe as part of God) there is less talk of sovereignty and more of collegiality with my fellow sentient beings. I suppose I could get a superiority complex if through some combination of hard work, cheating, luck, and ruthlessness I become very powerful and/or very wealthy. But if I have any perspective at all I will see that whatever empire I create will last a mere nanosecond compared to the life of the universe and will have an effect over a mere dust speck of that universe. Not much to write home about.

So it seems that with regard to sovereignty there are two basic positions: one where we are definitely inferiors to one or more truly sovereign beings, and one where we are collegially related either to the other elements of an infinite being or to our fellow non-god beings.

So the sovereignty issue doesn't turn on whether or not there is a God, but whether or not we are all of the same stuff. Whether we are all just matter in a spiritual void, or we are all bits of god in a purely spiritual realm!

130 posted on 11/26/2002 8:57:31 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: who_would_fardels_bear; Terriergal; Jerry_M; OrthodoxPresbyterian; the_doc; CCWoody; ...
"1. ...and by trying to conform my life to what I believe his will to be."

Man-centered religion. "This is what *I* do".

"2. I must pick and choose which Gods I believe to be most helpful to me ....I cast my lots and see how they fall."

Man-centered religion. "This is what *I* do."

"3. ...I am part of God I share partly in his perfection. ...I am only a bit of God ..."

Man-centered religion. "This is what *I* am and what *I* do".

"4. ...if I have half a brain in my head, I need to be humbled by my relative place in the Cosmos. ... there is less talk of sovereignty and more of collegiality with my fellow sentient beings. ..."

Man-centered religion. "This is what *I* need to do and the relationships *I* will have with the other gods."

"So the sovereignty issue doesn't turn on whether or not there is a God, but whether or not we are all of the same stuff. ..."

From the looks of it, you believe there is a god, and he, she, it, they, is/are you. LOL

131 posted on 11/26/2002 9:32:03 PM PST by Matchett-PI
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