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To: Terriergal
Thanks for the snippet from Lewis. A truly great author. My reply to him, knowing full well that I don't stand anywhere near to his level of thinking or understanding is:

1. Imagine the most complex physical arrangement: countless multiple universes with individuals and even entire species traveling back and forth between these multiple universes, and back and forth in time on a regular basis.

2. Regardless of how complex this situation is, God is outside of it and can "see" everything that has gone on, that is going on, and that will go on.

3. God sees physical reality like we might "see" a DVD movie. We can skip to the end, pause at a special spot, review something we like, or go back and see the beginning.

4. The major difference in theories about free will among Christians seems to be Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Calvinists basically say that God created the universe (or multiverse) a specific way from all time and that is it. It's like having a library with only one book in it.

The Arminians, on the other hand, seem to be saying that the library is filled with every possible book that could potentially occur because of what individuals might choose to do. However, only one book is the actual description of what will happen in this universe/multiverse and God knows which book that is.

5. Those of us who would like to "prove" that we truly have free will are now left with two choices: one book sitting alone on a shelf, or a myriad of books with only one piece of non-fiction ... all others being descriptions of imaginary worlds.

6. If God had nothing to do with the creation or maintenance of the world, then him merely knowing ahead of time what we will do would have no affect on whether or not we have free will. However, God did create us and maintains us every day. So the question is much more complex: If He created us and He knows how our lives will end up ... down to the nittiest-grittiest detail ... then how can we way we have free will?

7. A woman can't be a "little pregnant". Likewise, I don't think an infinite God can be a "little omnipotent or omniscient". If he knows that Hitler will kill over 6,000,000 Jews, then he knows that you will choose Corn Flakes over oatmeal for breakfast on July 14, 2005.

8. God could have somehow weaved free will into the design of the universe. However, on this point the Calvinists seem adamant: there is no way that whatever free will God might have snuck into the machine would allow us to take any credit for our own salvation. God does not work with us but on us. So the Calvinists' view of free will is a very severe one with free will amounting to little more than us being strapped into the rollercoaster seat of reality and nodding agreement as life whirls on by.

9. Imagine that you are a creator of one of these virtual worlds on the internet such as Everquest. With regard to you, the players do have free will. You only create the environment in which they act out their fantasies. As creator and maintainer of the game you can throw a whole bunch of "deus ex machinas" at them in the form of ogres, dragons, pots of gold, etc. but you can never be absolutely certain how they will react and how the whole thing will play out. God has no such limitation with regards to the Universe he created. He is no simple clockmaker that just started the whole thing running. He knows not only that He will cause Mount St. Helens to erupt, but that certain people will be very close at that time and will die because of it, while others will be miles away safely robbing a 7-11.

So basically I don't believe its that simple. Many of the examples one can use to think about free will vs. determinism end up sounding like dorm room discussion fodder and are quickly dissed and dismissed by the serious Calvinists. So be it. Evidently there are a number of obscure books that have been written over the years that discuss free will in all the gory details. I will try to get a hold of some of them to see if they shed any light on this topic, which I think is a truly worthwhile one for a website called FreeRepublic ...

especially since a disturbingly large percentage of the posters on this forum seem to be limited in their vision and susceptible to towing the party line to an extent that makes the average Calvinist seem like a bomb-throwing Anarchist!

109 posted on 11/25/2002 8:10:43 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: who_would_fardels_bear; OrthodoxPresbyterian
"The major difference in theories about free will among Christians seems to be Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Calvinists basically say that God created the universe (or multiverse) a specific way from all time and that is it. It's like having a library with only one book in it."

A shallow misunderstanding of what we believe.

We believe that God had the opportunity to create any one of an infinite number of realities (a REALLY big library with a limitless number of books), knowing full-well the outcome of all possible actions, yet chose to create this reality for His good pleasure.

112 posted on 11/26/2002 6:13:34 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: who_would_fardels_bear; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Oh, I forgot to mention. Since one of your foundational premises on the nature of Calvinism was so tragically flawed, there is no reason to comment on any of your conclusions arising from that premise.
113 posted on 11/26/2002 6:15:42 AM PST by Jerry_M
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To: who_would_fardels_bear; Terriergal; Jerry_M; CCWoody; the_doc; OrthodoxPresbyterian; ...
"..a disturbingly large percentage of the posters on this forum seem to be limited in their vision"

In light of that comment I guess you would say that there are more than two religions.

If that's what you're saying, then please list the others you seem to know about.

114 posted on 11/26/2002 8:05:35 AM PST by Matchett-PI
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
I don't think an infinite God can be a "little omnipotent or omniscient"

Because one IS omnipotent doesn't mean they have to exercise it all the time.

There is the old question about "if God is so powerful can he create a rock so big that he cannot lift it?"

Physcially no, because he transcends the rock.

However, he can limit himself *because* of love - love being his essence, as well as purity and holiness.

If he creates a creature with which he desires to have a free will love relationship, he can limit his direct influence upon that individual for the sake of love - for the sake of himself.

In that way he has created a rock he cannot lift. It is not that he cannot lift it, but that by lifting it, he destroys it.

118 posted on 11/26/2002 10:06:19 AM PST by Terriergal
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