One FReeper's analysis of the Homeland Security Act, HR 5710

11/18/2002 | dirtboy and some congressional staffer

[dirtboy]

I've heard a few experts on the talking head shows, and the more sane ones all seem to agree that the government still has to have a court order to get into a persons records, unless they are a foreign national.

My impression of H.R. 5710 is that it is mostly a bunch of arcane details regarding the shifting of personnel and departments to the new agency. There are some other bills that need to be read as well, and I know that one of them, H.R. 3482, has some significant restrictions on the Freedom of Information Act. But I have also been amazed at the amount of pure bulls*** that is being spread around about this bill.

[dirtboy]

Neither do I, but I bet (my life) that they can...

IF the feds get the authority to gather the data for this database, and IF they can come up with the technology to store all this information, IMO it will still be all-but worthless as a tool to magically devine potential terrorists - instead, it would be used as a lookup database, as in President Hillary calling up the Secretary of Homeland Defense and asking him to get a query of all the info in the database on a certain Jim Robinson...

[dirtboy]

Here's something interesting - the government gets down to defining terrorism in Section 865, page 277, mostly in the context of insurance and liability issues:

(B) REQUIREMENTS - An act meets the requirments of this subparagraph if the act-

(i) is unlawful;

(ii)causes harm to a person, property or entity in the United States, or in the case of a domestic United States air carrier or a United States-flag vessel (or a vessel based principally in the United States on which United States income tax is paid and whose insurance coverage is subject to regulation in the United States), in or outside the United States, and

(iii) uses or attempts to use instrumentalities, weapons or other methods designed to cause mass destruction, injury, or other loss to citizens or institutions of the United States.

[dirtboy]

Constraint on the new department:

SEC. 876. MILITARY ACTIVIES

Nothing in this Act shall confer upon the Secretary any authority to engage in warfighting, the military defense of the United States, or other military activities, nor shall anything in this Act limit the existing authority of the Department of Defense or the Armed Forces to engage in warfighting, the military defense of the United States, or other military activities.

Looks like the new Secretary will not be able to send the military to defend the border...

[Tancredo Fan]

I smell civil war.

[dirtboy]

Figured the drug war would creep into this bill somewhere, and this section is very significant:

SEC. 878 COUNTERNARCOTICS OFFICER.

The Secretary shall appoint a senior official in the Department to assume primary responsibility for coordinating policy and operations within the Department and between the Department and other federal agencies with respect to interdicting the entry of illegal drugs into the United States, and tracking and severing connections between illegal drug trafficing and terrorism. Such official shall-

(1) ensure the adequacy of resources within the Department for illicit drug interdiction; and

(2) serve as the United States Interdiction Coordinator for the Director of National Drug Control Policy.

[m1911]

Geez, how about a broader description:

An act meets the requirements of this subparagraph if:

A) It's really really naughty.

B) John Ashcroft has to go to Russia to announce the alleged perpetrator-to-be was caught a month before.

C) Any small furry creatures are injured or annoyed.

D) It's really naughty

E) Lawyers are involved.

F) It happens within 15,000 miles of federal property.

G) John Ashcroft's mother think's it's naughty.

[null and void]

Hence my eariler comment.


1 Thessalonians 5:3
While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape...

[dirtboy]

You and me are thinking along the same lines. A good opportunity for potential political mischief in that particular section.

[dirtboy]

Thanks, AM, for the prompt title change...

[dirtboy]

Just hit Section 880. Thanks for the lead notice on that one...

[6ppc]

I just don't see how they can do it.

The technology for doing this is actually quite mature and well understood. Data warehousing and retrieval is big business (built a couple of small ones myself). The database would be huge, but not unmanageable. This stuff makes me nervous...I prefer that it be a bit of a hassle to obtain the info.

[dirtboy]

Ooh, here's an interesting one:

SEC. 885. JOINT INTERAGENCY TASK FORCE

(a) ESTABLISHMENT.-The Secretary may establish and operate a permanent Joint Interagency Task Force composed of representatives from military and civilian agencies of the United States Government for the purposes of anticipating terrorist threats and taking appropriate actions to prevent harm to the United States [dirtboy - emphasis mine}

Hmmm ... this could be a very nasty weapon in the hands of the wrong Administration...

[FreepLady]

Please add me to your ping list! Thanks!!

[dirtboy]

Data warehousing and retrieval is big business (built a couple of small ones myself).

It is my experience that the larger ones often become data landfills instead. Plus, IMO the government has vastly problematic expectations about the data modeling process as to how it would deliver a manageable list of suspected terrorists. I imagine such a database, were the goverment to attempt to build it, would instead become a lookup database used to intimidate political opponents.

[6ppc]

For those who care, SECTION 471 nuked the INS as we know it.

Hallaluya! (sp?)

[dirtboy]

As an aside to your comment, contemplate this. During the DC sniper investigation, the authorities built a database to hold information gathered by both investigators and witnesses. The Caprice used by the suspect apparently was entered into that database several times - and this was probably a small database, maybe a few gigs of data. Since you've dealt with data warehouse projects, you can appreciate that it would be an extemely simple exercise to write a SQL query to pull out all license plate numbers that were in the database at least three times, ordered descending by number of entries ... giving the investigators a far more workable list of suspect vehicles than stopping all white vans and trucks in the region. But that didnt' happen. So if the feds cannot handle an exercise that you and I could perform in our sleep, what makes them believe they could create a data modeling/mining methodology that could create a manageable list of suspect terrorists from a petabyte investigative database?

[dirtboy]

WHOA, NELLIE! THIS BILL BASICALLY KILLS POSSE COMITATUS!

Section 886:

(4) Nevertheless, by its express terms, the Posse Comitatus Act is not a complete barrier to the use of the Armed Forces for a range of domestic purposes, including law enforcement purposes, when the use of the Armed Forces is authorized by Act of Congress or the President determnes that the use of the Armed Forces is required to fulfill the President's obligations under the Constitution to respond promptly in time of war, insurrection or other serious emergency.

This is by far the most significant aspect of this bill that I have seen so far!

[6ppc]

IMO the government has vastly problematic expectations about the data modeling process as to how it would deliver a manageable list of suspected terrorists. I imagine such a database, were the goverment to attempt to build it, would instead become a lookup database used to intimidate political opponents.

Oops...didn't make my point completely and you made it better. Yeah, there'll be a huge amount of garbage in it...garbage that can be dumped on your doorstep. Without racial and religious profiling it would be useless for catching terrorists, but mighty convenient for intimidating citizens. Like I said...makes me nervous.

[okie01]

"The Secretary may establish and operate a permanent Joint Interagency Task Force composed of representatives from military and civilian agencies of the United States Government for the purposes of anticipating terrorist threats and taking appropriate actions to prevent harm to the United States."

MI-5.

"Hmmm ... this could be a very nasty weapon in the hands of the wrong Administration..."

Just one more good, and now necessary, reason to elect men of good character.

But when did scum like the Clintons need a law that might be taken advantage of. They made and unmade law on their own. You can't necessarily judge a law by who might abuse it.