Powell attacks Christian right

Guardian ^ | Friday November 15, 2002 | Oliver Burkeman

[RJCogburn]

Veteran evangelist Jimmy Swaggart followed that this week by calling Mohammed a "sex deviant"

This is a bad joke, right?

[winstonchurchill]

I see these people day in and day out here and they are just as American as I am. They were not born here but so a lot of people were not born here and are American.

It is NOT about people. No one has said that all Arabs are bad people.

But it is about their religion. What Robertson and others have said is READ THE KORAN. The religion made up by Mohammed is a vicious and militaristic religion -- and always has been. And that is the problem.

When people are raised on studying nothing but that evil foolishness, they come out wanting to drive planes into skyscrapers or blow up nightclubs in order to collect their 72 virgins. Yes, the people are gullible to believe that nonsense, but probably no more so than the Americans who believe the Democrats. In any event, we cannot hate people for being gullible. We have to intelligently hate the evil which is being force fed into them.

The evil is in the religion, not in the people. What Robertson and others are -- quite respectfully -- pointing out is that we MUST hate the evil which is motivating these killers, not the people themselves.

That is not only a Christian message, it is a wise one as well.

[RJCogburn]

how ludicrous it is blame an entire group of people because of the actions of some members that use the religion or anything else like a hood as a shield!

Right you are, mom.

[mdmathis6]

I understand you antipathy towards Swaggart...I have it too. But I would like to know what Robertson or Fallwell have done exactly to merit your wrath.

They are conservative,advocating reduced government,less taxes, more freedoms especially religious freedoms. I've read the histories on Islam, we can see how the more extreme elements would like to see Islam spread and practiced...can you say Burcka boys and girls? Even in more"enlightened" Islamic societies, personal freedoms are stifled. These men are calling a spade a spade and oddly enough I don't see them arguing from a religious point of view but rather an old fashioned American common sense one.

They are arguing that it is all well and good to be an open tolerant society, to embrace all cultures and faiths. But you can't embrace a viper to your bosom and not have it bite you! You might argue that that Falwell and Robertson have an extreme faith that you can not stomach, but they haven't advocated taking a 747 and flying it into the Kaaba stone at Mecca...or suicide bombing "innocent" Moslem children either.

If the attacks on our Christian Right leaders continue by the Government for simply calling spades as spades...I will work mightily among my friends and fellow church goers to vote against the Republicans in 2004! Terror may be the enemy, Messieurs Bush and Powell, but you need to get a grip as to what is fueling it, it's not a couple of guy's in black suits with reverend or doctor after their names...calling a spade a spade!

[mdmathis6]

I agree...let's continue to keep our friends close, our enemies closer,and our Islamic "friends" in constant,suspicious, embrace!

[AmericanInTokyo]

"Say, hi guys. I'm an American. I just arrived. Pretty jetlagged. Real nice place you got here! Say, can't we all just be good friends? We don't have to be at war; we have lots in common with our diverrrrsity"....

(said seconds before the naive infidel's liver and spleen is punctured with an eight-inch bladed Jambiyah Arabic knife)

When will we ever wake up?? Are Powell and Bush stupid, or is someone telling them the have to say those idiotic things which gloss over the true nature of the Islam vs. Modern Human Civilization dichotomy?

[PhiKapMom]

I don't believe in open immigration at all. Also believe when student visas expire, they should be deported if they don't leave on time and in fact have too many student visas issued without checking them out. Too many times, illegals are rounded up and nothing happens. I am a huge believer in deporting illegals.

But then I don't believe in allowing people in our flight schools without a background check either!

And I do keep my eyes on the lookout, but then I do that in any area I am in the minority in like in large cities. My youngest daughter and I were in Chicago in the summer of 2001 when my daughter graduated from Great Lakes. Not a soul told us not to leave the Navy Lodge and go into North Chicago. Took me all of about five minutes to realize that it was not a good area and then I turned left and was in an area where Bodega was the name on the grocery and I about freaked out -- one bad area to another. We went back to the Navy Lodge and ordered take-out to be delivered!

[RJCogburn]

Jerry and Pat are only guilty of speaking the truth

Jerry and Pat are fools who blamed 9/11 on us...that's you and me....instead of the people flying the planes.

I guess this current line is good for fundraising purposes, though.

[Dialup Llama]

>The "good muslims" may not cut your throat, but they won't lift a finger to stop the "bad muslims" from doing it, either.

Nor will they warn you if they hear someone plotting to cut your throat, neither will they tell the police what they know after the fact. But then this is OK, because they are the good muslims.

[Malcolm]

Christians who are public figures, yet are not involved in politics as their primary profession, ought to focus exclusively on tending their flocks. All Falwell, Robertson, and others do by sharing their opinions with us is cause more problems, without helping the situation. Are there any Christians out there who do not ALREADY know that Islam is a false religion, and that the more "devout" a muslim is, the more violent he is? Why then, must religious leaders state the obvious? It only inflames muslims, without really adding any new info to the debate. Somewhere in the Bible, it says, "in a multitude of words, sin is NOT lacking," and, "how good is a word spoken in due season." I wish that religious leaders, NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN POLITICS, would abide in the calling to which they are called. "The flesh profits nothing" applies to everyone. Good intentions are NOT enough!!!

There are many Christians who are called to be involved in the field of politics; let them, not naive and politically ignorant preachers, perform this service. They, not preachers, are more aware of the "DOs and DON'Ts" of politics, and know when to say something and when not to. What if Tom Delay barged into your Church one morning, to tell you how you should serve the Lord next week? It's the same when well-intentioned preachers stick their nose into something that is over their heads....WAY OVER. I like Falwell, Robertson, and others like them, but it's obvious that their talents are not in the world of politics. In whatever field of endeavor, let those who are called to them serve them, and stay out of things that they are NOT called to do. The power of life AND DEATH itself are in the power of the tongue. Let's be quick to hear and slow to speak in all things.....

[MoGalahad]

Maybe you should learn more about it before you defend it. The evidence against Islam being a religion of peace or tolerance is overwhelming. By the way, do you honestly think Muslims will show their true selves in situations where they have no power. Muslims are not stupid. If they were to openly declare that they are in this country as colonizers they wouldn't be here long. When the Muslims try to convert your children, they will either convert, be enslaved, or be killed.

[meandog]

I understand you antipathy towards Swaggart...I have it too. But I would like to know what Robertson or Fallwell have done exactly to merit your wrath.

I have heard both of these idiots pronounce a sentence of hell at various times on different people. Falwell said that to Alan Dershowitz face on Geraldo's old show, adding "I'll pray for you..."
Now I, as with many FReepers, can't take a whole lot of A. "Dirt-for-wits" but I sure as hell don't know his ultimate fate. And for those with the arrogance to proclaim they DO KNOW is something, I believe, Jesus admonished us carefully about!

[Endeavor]

Next time you go to Chicago freepmail me and I'll send you to some excellent, SAFE restaurants. Ironically, you were close to some great neighborhoods (Highland Park, Lake Forest) not too far from Great Lakes. Like I said, freepmail me next time you go!

[RJCogburn]

All Falwell, Robertson, and others do by sharing their opinions with us is cause more problems, without helping the situation.

It is called fundraising.

[Dialup Llama]

>See how ludicrous it is blame an entire group of people because of the actions of some members that use the religion or anything else like a hood as a shield!

The reasoning here is a bit over the top. For fear of labelling an entire group, I cannot make salient points about a religion and culture. I think not.

Rather than try to remake islam into the image of neoprotestant Christianity, look at what muslims actually believe, say and do!

Yes I know the Persian professor down the street and Casey Kasem and all that. But you can't take these examples (who themselves may be refugees from islamic persecution) and say the Wahabbist infiltrators are like these as well. You give all religion the same benfit of the doubt and ascribe to islam the same good intentions that you ascribe to the buddhist. But what if the most central tenent of a relgion is that you should be enslaved or killed? What then? Should you continue in denial?

[Malcolm]

I'm glad an anti-Christian person like you can read minds, Cog. So let me return the favor and read yours. It's obvious you have no understanding on this subject and don't want any. I'm glad you can ascribe evil motives to people who are the opposite. (LOL, I just love it when atheists tell Christians we are evil or have evil motives; how would they know!?!)

[Godebert]

"This reminds me of the Clinton's attack on white males because a very, very small portion of them were militia members. They tarred and feathered a whole group of white males with their comments."

All "white males" ARE militia members. All males for that matter. It's just that most shirk their Constitutional duty to be well armed & trained. Do you think that those who don't shirk their duty should be tarred & feathered?

[meenie]

The Koran specifically says that all infidels should be offered the chance to convert. If not they should be killed. Now the question arises: If the Muslims do not abide with this edict from Allah, why do they insist in keeping it as a part of the Koran? If not, should we assume that all Muslims are hypocrites that do not believe in their religion?

It seems that any nation that has a majority Muslim government seems to have a pretty definite idea of following the Koran under Shia law. Ask the Christians in Malaysia how peaceful the Muslims are. Thousands have been killed there as well as in Pakistan. Who is acting as the spokesman for these atrocities? It is sure not Mr. Bush or Mr. Powell.

[RJCogburn]

If the Muslims do not abide with this edict from Allah, why do they insist in keeping it as a part of the Koran?

Good question and I am not about defending the Muslim religion or the Koran.

But just turn the question around. Adultery is a sin. Why do people like Swaggart, and any other Christian or Jew who has sinned in that manner, insist on keeping it as a Commandment?

Here is an easier one. Why do people who don't remember the Sabbath and keep it holy keep that Commandment around?

[mdmathis6]

I wasn't criticizing your son, just asking you to use your "thinking cap". It is hard to imagine intolerance in a country that has striven to rectify past intolerances...we Americans by and large believe in fair play and hard work, and freedom of conscience.

But there are people who want to hurt us, who want America to be made into an Islamic Caliphate. Some are not so not so violent or extreme...but they are insistent and impervious to reason. They may not raise a weapon against us, but they could not support us should we need to confront another Moslem terrorist in armed struggle...their creed forbids betraying another Moslem to an infidel.

The Moslem extremists seek to test us...they see us as decadent and weak, in many ways they may be right. Surely our crime rates and our culture's tendency towards licentiousness and sexual abominations support their view. What they don't see that there remains a strong, vigorous , morality in much of the country, a reality that our media out-lets cannot comprehend or worse would rather try to suppress in the name of the New Progressive World Order! They began to see it, to their chagrin after 9/11/01...we didn't just fold up, abandon Israel and convert to Islam...many ordinary Americans dusted themselves off,,took stock of what they believed in, and some-thing extaordinary exhibited it-self...that latent spirit of American patriotism and pride of country was aroused and caught the world by suprise with the robustness of its expression!

The time has come to temper our romantic notions of "tolerance" by dealing with reality. There are mean people in the world who want to destroy us; the freedom and light we represent is much too intolerable. So long as America exists, we remain an example to the people, suffering under horrible governments (ruled by extreme ideologues), in need of the hope of freedom. Thusly, we threaten these regimes by our very existence. Our "tolerance", and love of freedom of conscience vexes these regimes in their very souls. Our support of Israel is seen by many Moslems as an attack against Islam. Israel's very existence(as prophesied that she would indeed exist again according to the Bible) contradicts Islam, creating within many Moslems a cognitive disonance between their religion and the Judeo-Christian religion. Both can't be right, according to Islam,Islam must rule the world....but why did Allah allow Israel, filled with that most hated of peoples...the Jews... to be re-established? Many Moslems would rather not face that question for this would lead to unsettling conclusions that would destroy their world view. Thus they fight against her and against America!