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National sales tax gains momentum
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Wednesday, November 13, 2002 | By Jon Dougherty

Posted on 11/12/2002 11:46:28 PM PST by JohnHuang2

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Wednesday, November 13, 2002

Quote of the Day by goldstategop

1 posted on 11/12/2002 11:46:28 PM PST by JohnHuang2
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To: Jim Robinson
Heads up, Jim
2 posted on 11/12/2002 11:46:48 PM PST by JohnHuang2
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To: JohnHuang2
BTTT for tomorrow
3 posted on 11/12/2002 11:50:16 PM PST by Brad’s Gramma
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To: JohnHuang2
I thought such a tax would be very inflationary, since the consumption tax would be incurred at every step of production, and of course, that cost would have to be passed along to the consumer.

Am I confusing this with anoter type of consumption based tax?

As long as income is stopped from taxation, and the result wouldn't be wildly inflationary, this would be an awesome development!
4 posted on 11/12/2002 11:55:16 PM PST by HitmanLV
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To: JohnHuang2
Yes!! If Bush can pull this off and end the tyranny of the income tax and the IRS and their goon squads, then he will go down as the greatest president in history (IMHO). The income tax is a slave tax and America will never be free until it's abolished!

5 posted on 11/13/2002 12:04:45 AM PST by Jim Robinson
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To: Jim Robinson
Bump!
6 posted on 11/13/2002 12:09:52 AM PST by JohnHuang2
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To: JohnHuang2
People won't be " celebrating " this move, when they have to pay a comsumption tax on the full price of the house / condo / co-op they buy, even though they'll have a mortgage. Selling property won't be so easy either. Unintended ( unthought of ? ) consiquences just might shock some here. :-)

As for me, I 'd rather a 10 % flat tax.

7 posted on 11/13/2002 12:15:22 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
I'd rather get rid of the slave tax and the IRS goon squad. Eliminating the income tax is step one to restoring our Republic and reclaiming our freedom. Once the feds are defunded, the rest of the unconstitutional federal behemoth begins to crumble. Defund the beast, defang it, and drive a stake through its heart. This is what the Republican Party should stand for! Long live the Republic!
8 posted on 11/13/2002 12:31:36 AM PST by Jim Robinson
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To: Jim Robinson
Jim, I want to get rid of the IRS, their GOON SQUAD, and have a smaller government, as much as you do and for a longer amount of time. The insurmountable problem, here, is that a consumption tax won't do all that much to bring about what we ALL want. It WOULD bring about consiquences, as I have already explained, that would be extremely detrimental.

President Bush wants to make his death tax eviseration perminant. I want him to do that too ! Ditto the rest of that agenda. But ... think what a consumption tax would REALLY do . It might get rid of THIS form of the IRS ; however, some other such entity would , of necessity , have to replace it.

You want to defund the governemnt; so do I, to some extent. If it was completely defunded, how could it support the military ? Tarrifs , alone, on top of a consumption tax isn't going to " cut it ".

LONG LIVE OUR REPUBLIC !

9 posted on 11/13/2002 12:41:07 AM PST by nopardons
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To: JohnHuang2
I support replacing the income tax with a consumption based national sales tax. To make sure the income tax isn't resurrected in the future, the 16th Amendment would have to be repealed.
10 posted on 11/13/2002 12:43:46 AM PST by goldstategop
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To: *Taxreform; Principled; Bigun; Taxman
Big Bump for your attention
11 posted on 11/13/2002 12:44:02 AM PST by ancient_geezer
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To: nopardons
Taxes, duties and excises (as the Founders intended).

I believe there are only a little over a dozen powers and functions delegated to the federal government in the Constitution. Defending our borders is job number one. After that, they run the federal court system, the post office, the patent office, coin the money, etc. All other functions currently handled by the federal government that are not specifically authorized should be turned back to the states and the people.

What sales tax rate would be required if we only had to fund the military and a dozen or so authorized depts? Probably less than 10%. Let's see, my guess is the federal budget would probably be about a third of what it is now.
12 posted on 11/13/2002 12:57:01 AM PST by Jim Robinson
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To: goldstategop
I'm ready. I'll go for a twofer. Repeal the 16th and the 17th. That should defund it, defang it, and drive a stake through it.
13 posted on 11/13/2002 12:59:49 AM PST by Jim Robinson
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To: nopardons
Here are some clips from an article posted tonight:

"In 1794, Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees. James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object, saying, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." James Madison, you'll recall, is the acknowledged father of the Constitution, and he couldn't find constitutional authority for spending "on the objects of benevolence."

Your congressman might say, "Madison was all wrong; after all, there's the 'general welfare' clause." Here's what Madison had to say about that: "With respect to the two words "general welfare," I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." Thomas Jefferson echoed similar sentiments saying, "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."

When the great generation was born, Congress spent only three percent of the GDP. Today, as the great generation dies off, Congress spends over a quarter of the GDP. There is no constitutional authority for at least three-quarters of that spending."

Wow! Only three percent of GDP! If they could do, we can do it!

http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/787923/posts

14 posted on 11/13/2002 1:10:36 AM PST by Jim Robinson
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To: HitmanNY
Am I confusing this with anoter type of consumption based tax?

Yes you are. You're thinking a value-added tax (VAT).
A National Retail Sales Tax (NRST) is only on end-users.

Neither is inflationary, per se; a VAT hides the costs of government in the retail price, The NRST puts it out in front of the consumer (AKA voters).

15 posted on 11/13/2002 1:14:56 AM PST by dread78645
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To: Jim Robinson
A dream you'll never live to see. Most people wouldn't stand for it and there'd be riots.

Many places already have a city / state consumption tax, on some things. N.Y.C. and Chicago's is already almosts 9 %. I rather doubt that a Fed Gov consumption tax would only be 10 % ; however, if it were, added onto already existing VAT , that would come up to 20%, in some places. Since the vast majority of people, in this country, don't pay THAT in Income tax, they would certainly be angry as the dickens. Then, there is state income tax and in someplaces, city income taxes. Neither would be done away with, I presume. Add property taxes to the mix. With NO Fed income taxes, there'd be NO mortgage deductions. There'd be NO charitable deductions.

From family stories, I know, full well, what life was like prior to unemployment benefits, etc. I know what would have to happen, without any governments teats. This country , for the most part, doesn't know that and they would have one gigantic hissy fit ! What would those , now getting Social Security ( and I'm NOT talking about the cheats )do ?

Jim, we mostly want the same thing. What I, unlike you, can see, is that it just can't be done in one fell swoop. This isn't 1780,nor even 1880. Incrementilism is the ONLY way to turn back the clock. It's how that clock got started, in the first place. This isn't an aggranian nation any more. This isn't a small nation, clinging to the shores of the Atlantic Ocean. The STATES weren't doing that great a job of " handling things " in the 1880s; how could they now ?

Here's another tidbit to chew on. Barttering was still previlant, not so very long ago. Push for this , IMMEDIATELY , and we're back to an underground marketplace, rather quickly, and a lot of funds get diverted away from the Fed Gov. Yes, more cash would come from that same , now, underground vault; it just couldn't supply enough to do the paltry things you calim that it should only do.

Would the upper middle and upper classes try to find some way around a consumption tax ? Look at what happened when the " LUXURY TAX " was instituted a few years back !

Capital Gains taxes would, I assume , now be gone , only to be replaced by a 10 % ( or more ? ) consumption tax ? On the purchase of EVERY stock and mutual fund and option, etc. ? Watch the Markets crash and burn !

Housing sales ? P-O-O-F !

There just HAS to be some way to get the GOV out of our pockets; but, this isn't it .

16 posted on 11/13/2002 1:19:43 AM PST by nopardons
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To: Jim Robinson
No we can't ! Different times, different people, and a totally different mindset.

There were NO public schools, in 1794.

Our bounderies protected us; naturally, in 1776.

Almost NO ONE was actively engaged in the Stock Market, in 1794.

The country was vastly smaller and contained a more homogenious populace ; not to mention a radically smaller one, in 1794.

Slavery was alive and well, in 1794, as was indentured servitude.

There were NO nukes, in 1794.

Israel didn't exist, in the midst of a hostile Arab wprld, in 1794. Are you suggesting that the USA abandon Israel now ?

Need I go on ? :-)

17 posted on 11/13/2002 1:25:49 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
Either the National Retail Sales Tax or the Flat Tax would be better than what we have now.

Either system would be fairer and simpler, but the Flat Tax could move through Congress more quickly and easily. The problems with the NRST are...

1. The rate would be over 20% and added to current sales taxes, it would come close to 30% in some states. I doesn't think people will tolerate this.

2. There would be a compliance problem called, "I can get it for you wholesale."

3. Repeal of the 16th amendment would have to come first in order to avoid having both the income tax and the NRST. This would be a long, drawn-out process even if it were to be successful.

18 posted on 11/13/2002 1:32:55 AM PST by KDD
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To: nopardons
If there is no federal income tax, there is no need for federal mortgage deductions. And there would automatically be a much bigger paycheck for every working American. Eventually, the Social Security Tax will also have to be phased out and privatized otherwise it fails of its own weight and goes bankrupt. This alone returns 16% (both sides, employee and employer) or so of every worker's paycheck to the working family.

As a bonus, the costs of all products sold will be reduced by 20% or so as the government tax burden on all products will be lightened.

Let's face it, the 25% that the federal government siphons off the GDP every year is a huge dead weight burden on our society!
19 posted on 11/13/2002 1:33:06 AM PST by Jim Robinson
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To: KDD
Agreed. I would prefer a flat tax of 10 %, myself, though.
20 posted on 11/13/2002 1:35:03 AM PST by nopardons
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