Posted on 11/08/2002 1:09:07 PM PST by Tomalak
Life begins at mitosis...
Mitosis is the beginning of life, not fertilization.
Abortion is ritual mass murder in sacrifice to pagan idols...
If the soul joins the body at or after the moment of implantation, twinning is a non-issue, since from what I understand implantation triggers changes that make twinning impossible (or at least ensure that it cannot produce two viable individuals).
Actually, while life exists as a continuum, I tend to regard implantation as being a biologically more significant event than fertilization, since it marks a point beyond which the individual must develop continuously until it dies. Prior to implantation, a zygote/inimplanted blatocyst can survive for years under the right conditions without developing at all. Very soon after implantation occurs, however, the embryo will either develop into a full-fledged baby within ~10-11 months [some may develop slowly] or will die completely. There's no way an implanted embryo can be born 2 years later. If it's not born within ~10-11 months, it never will be.
Frankly, though, I really don't think this issue is nearly as important as some people here think it is. The vast majority of people in this country think a 24-week fetus is a baby, and would like for them to have some significant degree of legal protection. Even if someone thinks a 12-week fetus is not a baby, and not worthy of protection, if they agree that a 24-week fetus is a baby it would be good to regard them as a friend rather than an enemy, at least until such time as the status quo will protect a 24-week fetus.
The fact is that the majority of the people in this country do not support the "official" Republican position on abortion, but they would support a position far to the right of the status quo. If Republicans had the sense to capitalize on this, they could be far more effective than they are now.
I had a similar experience with our 7 year old son. He peeked over my shoulder when I had just opened this thread. He saw the image of the 7 week gestation baby and immediately said "that's a baby before it hatches from its egg". It seems our youngsters think more clearly than many adults.
Since the first few cell divisions happen very quickly after fertilization, I don't see the distinction as being terribly relevant in practical terms. Nonetheless, I think the idea may be that the beginning of mitosis after fertilization would serve as confirmation that fertilization was "complete".
To be sure, that's somewhat arbitrary, but so is any other like one might care to draw. Fertilization, after all, represents a sequence of steps which occur in fairly rapid succession. If the sperm has just touched the egg, but not yet completely penetrated it, is the egg fertilized? Does it really matter? If the fertilization works, it will be apparent soon enough; likewise if it fails.
Republicans need to recognize that support for the 'pro-choice' position is a mile long, and in many places very deep, but only an inch wide: the vast majority of the population believe very strongly that a woman should be able to opt for an abortion in certain cases; they feel strongly--though slightly less so--that abortion in certain other cases is wrong and should be restricted.
Democrats have been able to portray Republicans as wanting to forbid abortion even in those few cases where a supermajority of the public strongly believe it should be legal. If the Republicans were to shift their focus so as to escape such portrayals, it would then be the Democrats who would be seen as being out-of-touch with the public.
Republicans, sad to say, manage to consistently lose votes on the abortion issue. If they took a measured, but principled, stand, they should win votes on the issue; unfortunately, they seem unable to do so.
I believe that respecting and appealing to this empathy gives us the strongest argument for protection. #130 posted by palmer
Growth is necessary for life.
No, Thomas Hobbes said that. Didn't notice the quotation marks?
I have thought about it, but I can't empathize with a zygote.
Imperfect = arbitrary. The only thing that is for certain not arbitrary on this earth, is death. Everything on the earth that is alive, dies at some point. Death is perfect and not arbitrary.
For anything to be considered alive by the current standards of terran biology, it must have cell division, DNA replication, mitosis. All living things on the earth have this. All living things on this earth have DNA. This has been shown so far not to be an arbitrary quality.
In order to have death, something has to first be alive. This is the major sticking point in the abortion argument. The unborn child from the point of that first mitosis is indeed alive. Most people aren't intellectually honest enough to admit that they are killing with abortion.
My argument here is deductive and supported by facts. Arguments I have seen to the contrary are inductive, invalid argument forms of logic and only supported by emotion - - something imperfect and arbitrary.
Your imperfect and arbitrary argument comes from empathy, pathos, despair, phantasms in the brain of the maker (you), which does have a similitude to a religious belief or an ethereal foundation (per Hobbes, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Kierkegaard, Aquinas, Augustine, et al). I'm an atheist and I won't let you slide on that.
This is, in part, why I say abortion is a practice of ritual mass murder, a collective sacrifice to pagan idolatries.
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