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Origin of the Specious
Reason Online ^ | 1997 | Ronald Bailey

Posted on 11/06/2002 9:25:58 PM PST by general_re

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To: PatrickHenry; uncbuck
With regard to the challenge concerning Darwin and the Constitution, I did a quick search and uncovered something you might find interesting. It is a Washington state senate bill introduced earlier this year: Full Text
61 posted on 11/07/2002 11:02:31 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Thanks , Insightful, did it pass?
62 posted on 11/07/2002 11:06:43 AM PST by uncbuck
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To: Alamo-Girl
1/18/02 5:45 p.m.
WASHINGTON STATE LEGISLATURE History of SB 6500

SB 6500 Requiring that textbooks and curriculum shall teach the self-evident truth of creation.

Sponsors: Senators Hochstatter

-- 2002 REGULAR SESSION --
Jan 18 First reading, referred to Education.

I think we can probably read the dates to mean it died in committee ;)

63 posted on 11/07/2002 11:11:22 AM PST by general_re
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To: uncbuck
Thank you for your post!

I don't have a clue about the status, just ran into the text of the bill and believed it had some bearing on the rationale.

If that rationale is correct, a move to a national policy of radical materialism would require renouncing the Declaration of Independence and hence, the concept of how unalienable rights are endowed.

64 posted on 11/07/2002 11:12:37 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: general_re
Thank you for your post!

I don't have a clue how the legislative mill works in the state of Washington - how long a bill stays in committee, etc.

65 posted on 11/07/2002 11:15:11 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
It varies from state to state, but no matter where you are, bills don't stay in committee for nearly 10 months, because the legislative sessions aren't that long. That session of the WA legislature ended on March 14'th, and the next legislature won't reconvene again until January, when the bill would have to be re-introduced in order to go anywhere. The long and the short of it is that it didn't pass because it never even came to a floor vote, and may very well never have been voted on in committee either.
66 posted on 11/07/2002 11:24:48 AM PST by general_re
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To: general_re
weather it passed on not is really irrealavent, I know I asked , but is the logic (sorry to be scientific) not clear?
67 posted on 11/07/2002 11:28:44 AM PST by uncbuck
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To: uncbuck
Uhm... which logic?
68 posted on 11/07/2002 11:31:33 AM PST by BMCDA
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To: general_re
Good News For The Day

‘And has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father’ (Revelation 1:6)

"John echoes Yahweh's words, spoken at the Exodus. He told Israel that they would be a kingdom and a priesthood. The same words are now applied to the church. The community of faith is to be a kingdom in the sense that God will reign in it. But there is a sense in which the power of the kingdom will be shared by its citizenry. Compare Revelation 5:10 ‘They will reign on the earth.’

"John lived in the ancient east where kings were proverbial for their absolute power, and splendid lifestyle. For those who join with Christ, life is full of privileges. The first and primary privilege is the liberation from the deadening burden of sin (1:5). But other brimming satisfactions follow."

"Jesus predicted that those who cast their lot in with him, would discover surprising joys. He pictured a poor ploughman; toiling day and night to make ends meet. One day his plough turned up a casket of treasures. From that day forward life was decked with overflowing benefits. Some of them are listed in the Beatitudes. ‘Blessed are the poor, theirs is the kingdom of heaven; blessed are those who hunger, for they will be satisfied; blessed are they that... weep---for they will laugh’ (Luke 6:20,21).

Paul adds this thought: ‘We are heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ’ (Romans 8:17)

"There is a quality of life that God intends for us. For now, it is principally known in the spiritual blessings that are ours in Christ. A day will come when the material world will correspondingly yield a bounty to us."

69 posted on 11/07/2002 11:32:02 AM PST by f.Christian
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To: general_re
The various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman
World, were all considered by the people as equally true;
by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the magistrate,
as equally useful.

- Edward Gibbon (1737-1794)
70 posted on 11/07/2002 11:42:33 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic
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To: general_re
Thank you for your post and the information and analysis!

The interesting part of the bill, to me at least, is the rationale used in describing the disconnect between the Federal and State Constitution and the teaching of evolution. If we see such a bill again either in Washington state or elsewhere, it will be instructive to compare the language IMHO!

71 posted on 11/07/2002 11:44:38 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: BMCDA
If the Constitution is based on the belief in a 'Creator', is it not therefore logical to assume that athiesm and the Conny are incompatible?
72 posted on 11/07/2002 11:49:19 AM PST by uncbuck
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To: uncbuck
The Constitution is not based on the belief in a 'Creator', sorry.
Also, the creator mentioned in the DoI doesn't have to be a supernatural entity. The authors of the DoI could have used 'God' or the name of an other deity if they wanted to be unambiguous about the supernatural origin of the 'Creator' but for some reason they didn't.
73 posted on 11/07/2002 11:58:25 AM PST by BMCDA
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To: BMCDA
Good News For The Day

‘I am the truth. . ..’(John 14:6)

"For most of time, men and women have assumed that the truth was there to be found out. This began to change in the 19th century and the change gathered pace in the 20th. As people began to question the existence of God, it became obvious to some, that the existence of truth requires the existence of God. With God dismissed, it became impossible to conceive of truth in any absolute sense. This has resulted in the humiliation of truth. Truth is now whatever you would like it to be."

"Truth's demise has filtered down through the great centers of learning, the arts, and on into streets and homes. Everything is possible with truth gone. Everything is permissible. Musicians make music that doesn't sound musical. Painters paint pictures that are incomprehensible to normal folk. Playwrights write plays that are nonsense, and architects design buildings that no one can understand. All this is put forward as legitimate, but what does it all mean?"

"No matter how much... popular culture---is encouraged to believe in the relativity of truth, no one can build a decent life on such a notion."

"Inevitably proponents of freedom from God, and from absolute truth, are obliged to reach outside of their own system, and borrow something from theism in order to make their lives work."

"The person who believes that everything is valid, will soon find that he is condemned to meaninglessness. Christ is a standing offer of escape from such a hell as this To believe that truth is like Christ, is salvation indeed."

74 posted on 11/07/2002 12:08:05 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: BMCDA
Did you just ask what is my definition of the word is?

Its all a play on semantics, and the most common interpretation of the word "Creator" (used in the DoI with a capital 'C') is a supreme being, I'm not arguing a specific religion here, just that atheists, as I understand it, don't believe in a supreme being. That would be an agnostic. Agnostisism and the Constutution ARE compatible.
I've never seen an atheistic bible to know how that whole 'church' works.
75 posted on 11/07/2002 12:09:48 PM PST by uncbuck
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To: uncbuck
Creation/God...REFORMATION(Judeo-Christianity)---secular-govt.-humanism/SCIENCE---CIVILIZATION!

Originally the word liberal meant social conservatives(no govt religion--none) who advocated growth and progress---mostly technological(knowledge being absolute/unchanging)based on law--reality... UNDER GOD---the nature of GOD/man/govt. does not change. These were the Classical liberals...founding fathers-PRINCIPLES---stable/SANE scientific reality/society---industrial progress...moral/social character-values(private/personal) GROWTH(limited NON-intrusive PC Govt/religion---schools)!

Evolution...Atheism-dehumanism---TYRANNY(pc-religion/rhetoric)...

Then came the SPLIT SCHIZOPHRENIA/ZOMBIE/BRAVE-NWO1984 LIBERAL NEO-Soviet Darwin/ACLU America---the post-modern age

76 posted on 11/07/2002 12:11:56 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: uncbuck
The US constitution makes the assumption from the Declaration of Independence that "all men are created equal" which if darwinism is correct, is NOT true. It also assumes that "they are endowed by there CREATOR with certain...", both quotes incompatable with atheism.

Everyone knows that all men are not equal. This is obvious, whether we were created or evolved. The Constitution provides that all are entitled to equal protection of the law, which is all we can do. This is the concept embodied in the Declaration.

The "creator" mentioned in the Declaration is "nature and nature's god," from Jefferson's expression in the first sentence. That is, quite likely, not the supernatural deity to which you refer. Historians usually consider it to be an expression of deism, not theism. The document as a whole is probably ambiguous. In any event, the Declaration isn't law, it isn't part of the Constitution, and it doesn't outlaw atheism, or any other belief about religion. The quote I gave you before, from Article 6 of the Constitution, specifically contradicts what you are now claiming.

You may say that the two documents are not connected, but without the assumptions of the D.of I. the Constitution would not have come about. Is it not evident that the Declaration is the real preamble to the Constitution.

Look at it any way you wish. They are separate documents, drafted by separate groups of men (with some overlap), but separated by nearly a dozen years. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. It does not include the Declaration.

77 posted on 11/07/2002 12:20:40 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: uncbuck
To: Marathon

Missionaries have said for years that American educational/media institutions are far more closed than in places like Russia. This underscores their point. What was it someone said, to find real communists these days you have to visit an American university?

2 Posted on 03/27/2000 10:56:24 PST by Marathon

78 posted on 11/07/2002 12:20:45 PM PST by f.Christian
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To: uncbuck
Atheists don't believe in supernatural beings, whether they are supreme or not. However, I still fail to see why not believing that the 'Creator' is a supernatural, personal entity is in any way unconstitutional.
The Constitution is the valid law of the U.S. and whatever happened before the Constitution was enacted is only of historical interest. And as far as I know, the Constitution is compatible with a belief in a deity (or deities) as well as with the lack thereof.
79 posted on 11/07/2002 12:30:55 PM PST by BMCDA
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To: BMCDA
FR's concern about media bias is a focus on a symptom, not a root cause. Everyone has a bias, reflecting our foundational worldview. This nation was founded on a creationist, Christian worldview. As the secular humanist worldview came into dominance the governing system established for an outwardly Christian society inevitably became corrupted. Postmodernism is just the inevitable end result of the rejection of God.

That's why, while sharing FR's concern for media bias, I don't think the solution is to rail about the bias. Rather we need to educate ourselves, deprogramming ourselves from secular humanistic myths and brainwashing. This took me years of work personally, after a lifetime of indoctrination in government schools and media. I went from being a suicidal teen (albeit a National Merit Scholar, etc.) to a creationist and a Christian from the study of creationary and other biblical apologetics. They formed the foundation for my new, biblical worldview.

Our government today is corrupt because our society is corrupt. Men who deny God have no basis for recognizing something is "corrupt" (outside of meaningless personal opinion) unless they acknowledge a divine standard. That is what is missing in today's society. As Solzhenitsyn said, men have forgotten God. I thank God that He never forgot *me* and so richly blesses me and answers our prayers with such faithfulness as I could not have imagined!

So let us not curse the darkness, FReepers, but light candles with our own lives, and share the warmth of God's love and truth with others. Ephesians 2:8-9.

... Marathon!

80 posted on 11/07/2002 12:38:23 PM PST by f.Christian
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