Court says Chicago can try linking Crime, Gun Industry

Chicago Sun Times ^ | November 5, 2002 | FRANK MAIN AND FRAN SPIELMAN

[Truth Telling Guy]

Court says Chicago can try linking crime, gun industry

November 5, 2002

BY FRANK MAIN AND FRAN SPIELMAN STAFF REPORTERS

Chicago won a major legal victory Monday when an Illinois appeals court ruled the city can sue gunmakers and dealers for creating a public nuisance with their products.

The ruling came more than two years after a lower court dismissed the city's $433 million lawsuit against the gun industry.

"This is another important victory for gun victims and cities and local governments that are trying to stem the tide of violence," said Jonathan Lowy of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

Larry Rosenthal, an assistant corporation counsel for the city, said the opinion "revolutionized" public nuisance laws, which in the past have been applied to conventional polluters like power plants.

"In our view," the court wrote, "plaintiff's complaint sufficiently pleads facts that, notwithstanding actual knowledge that the guns would be brought into Chicago and used in crimes, the manufacturers, distributors and dealers failed to alter their actions, thereby creating a public nuisance."

The opinion added that a "reasonable trier of fact could find that the criminal misuse of guns to kill persons were occurrences that defendants knew would result or were substantially certain to result from the defendants' alleged conduct here."

Late last year, the appeals court upheld a similar lawsuit that the families of gunshot victims filed in 1998. Among the victims were Chicago police Officer Michael Ceriale, shot to death in 1998 on a drug stakeout, and Andrew Young, killed in 1996 at a stoplight in Rogers Park.

"Today's decision is not all that surprising, given what the appellate court did in Young," said James P. Dorr, a defense attorney for gunmakers in both lawsuits. "I anticipate we will ask the Illinois Supreme Court to overturn this case, too. . . . The City of Chicago alleges the firearms manufacturers market the guns to criminals, which is false."

Richard Pearson of the Illinois State Rifle Association called Monday's ruling "ludicrous."

"They are out to wipe out firearms dealers one way or another," he said. "If this can be done with firearms, what about the getaway car used in robberies or the baseball bat someone uses in a beating or the computer the auditor uses to doctor documents? These are inanimate objects. It requires a criminal to misuse them."

The city's central argument in its 1998 lawsuit was that the gun industry knowingly used a handful of suburban dealers as a pipeline to flood the city with guns that traffickers in turn supplied to criminals.

The city presented evidence that 1 percent of area gun dealers were responsible for 48 percent of gun-related crimes.

Of the 21 lawsuits that municipalities have brought against the gun industry, 10 have been dismissed. Cases in Cincinnati and California are moving toward trial. Meanwhile, the gun industry is pushing legislation in Congress that would provide immunity from such lawsuits, Lowy said

[demosthenes the elder]

It will get slapped down on higher appeals, but the damage it can do in the interim might be catastrophic.

[demosthenes the elder]

I do not like to make statements which could seem to be an advocacy of violence, so let me say this very, very carefully:
I can only suggest that all constitutionalists start keeping a detailed file of the names, professions, addresses, and acts of those responsible for these and other Constitution-corroding attacks, so that, if the need should ever arise (God FORBID!) and another armed revolution becomes inevitable, those who have worked so long and hard to make it so will not escape retribution.

[demosthenes the elder]

THAT IS A VERY GOOD IDEA.

[demosthenes the elder]

you misunderstood. Zon was suggesting that the Gun Manufacturers might just up and decide to tell the Chicago PD, Illinois SP, etc... to get stuffed the next time they wish to purchase weapons.
THAT would be both quite fair and a very clear message.

[Chemist_Geek]

A very good idea, but that's a lot of money they're dangling. Only a very principled firearms CEO would do that; the anti-rights' mob's spin on that would be a terrible storm to weather.

Buck up, bite the bullet, and DO IT! Firearms companies, you'll make it up in sales to private parties who would love that sign of backbone!

[demosthenes the elder]

compared with "...the city's $433 million lawsuit against the gun industry" whatever the invoice is for a police order would be trivial.
The point, as you clearly saw, would be to bite the bullet and break those idiots to heel NOW.
Similarly, they might also contract all of the armed private security people in chicago, retaining them with a decent stipend which requires them to do NO SECURITY WORK FOR ANY OF THE JUDGES, LAWYERS, POLS, AND DEMAGOGUES responsible for this nonsense.
Let the ELITE lose their gun-toting security for a while and see how THEY like it.

[donmeaker]

Concur. The other thing is to ban firearms from the local police. No sales to police officers, since police are occasionally shot with their own weapons. That especially follows for Mayor Daley's bodyguards who are serving police officers. The dim bulb mayor may go even more nutzo and attempt to shoot in the air, missing the air he would probably hit one of his officers.

[Zon]

you misunderstood. Zon was suggesting...

Yes he did. Instead of grasping the reality of how upset citizens would be when gun makers decide to refuse to sell any guns to law enforcement agencies in Chicago, he assumed that the government was the only one in control and that the gun manufactures couldn't decide for themselves. Compounding that wrong assumption he proceeded to wrongly assume that I favor being a 'slave' to the gun grabbers in Chicago.

[#3Fan]

This of course came out on election day. This definitely appears as a political manuever.This is Rod Blagojevich's(D) (govenor elect) baby. So I guess we'll be shooting paper wads at criminals. This is ridiculous.

Blagojevich better get his anti-gun freaks under control or else he'll be in the same shape as George Ryan in 4 years. Even Democrats in downstate fiercely believe in their 2nd amendment rights.

[demosthenes the elder]

given his initial misread, his second incorrect assumption follows naturally and is justifiable. I mean, if you DID think the chi-Coms were the only ones with any legit reason to have firearms/dictate firearms policies, then it would stand to reason that you were in favor of BOHICAing to their every whim.
I am sure he has seen the error at this point.
I still think your initial suggestion has HEFTY merit.

[demosthenes the elder]

didn't some famous ChiCom antigunner pol gutshoot a home invader with an illegally owned (completely unregistered*) pistol a few (10-15) years back? I can't remember the site or magnitude of the injury, or whether it was fatal, but I seem to remember him making some kind of lame excuse like "I was aiming at his foot" or something... who was this guy??? It wasn't the current mayor, was it?

*as of 1968, all pistols in chicago must be registered with local police... many were subsequently confiscated, many others were stolen when lists of the registries were sold onto the black market.

[Zon]

"Assumption is the mother of all fu*k ups." -- Under Siege 2

[supercat]

Blagojevich better get his anti-gun freaks under control or else he'll be in the same shape as George Ryan in 4 years. Even Democrats in downstate fiercely believe in their 2nd amendment rights.

If Blagojevich passes the stuff he's been wanting to pass, a lot of the gun owners who voted against him this year won't vote against him in 2006. Might like to, perhaps, but as residents of other states they wouldn't be allowed to.

[AmericanVictory]

We can see why, in Chicago, they would only want the mob and their friends in the government to have guns.

[#3Fan]

If Blagojevich passes the stuff he's been wanting to pass, a lot of the gun owners who voted against him this year won't vote against him in 2006. Might like to, perhaps, but as residents of other states they wouldn't be allowed to.

An Illinois exodus like the California exodus? Illinois is now "California on the Lake".

[Truth Telling Guy]

Carl Rowan the anti-gunner shot a kid he caught swimming in his pool with an "illegal" gun.

(Not that I'm am saying any gun is or should be illegal.)

[Truth Telling Guy]

You should never register any gun.

[demosthenes the elder]

I don't, when I can avoid it.

Unfortunately, my M1911A1 is BATF registered (well, dealer yellow-papered, but we all know what that means) since I bought it at a dealer. I wish I could do a circular disappearance job on it, but so far, no go. I am on very good terms with local LEOs, so I might be able to do a registered sale to one of them and buy it back unregistered...

I have managed to "disappear" several guns - bought them, shot them awhile, trained friends to shoot them and clean them and own them responsibly, and sold them those guns for ONE U.S. DOLLAR EACH.
I figure it is a civic duty.

Screw the BATF. They exist solely to make the FBI and DEA look competent.