[William Terrell]

That is likely due in large part to your ignorane of the bill and your love of the income tax.

I've read every word of it. Have you. Then answer me this: if the NRST collections at a certain percentage didn't maintain the set (the current level at the initial implimentation of HR 2525) level of social security, what, by law would have to happen?

As do I, but I also encourage anyone here to learn about the subject before making wild assertions.

As you evidently need to.

So why are you so worried about it then?

Because people, as evidenced by the response of many on FR, will not research the bill and the law it will spawn, much less the implication of that law. It will be advertised as a "FairTax", a misleading and attempted preconditioning tactic at the onset.

It's drawbacks will not be discussed except in backwater opinion pages that nobody reads. They will be enticed by carrots (poor won't have to pay the tax[and no, getting it back is not like not having to pay it], you won't have to fill out forms again) designed to communicate to the most base emotion in the human race, greed, fear, jelousy.

Some of the reasons. If wanted to type more I could go on. You know people, or you should.

You don't have to own a computer to be on FR. I don't own this computer.

I'm sure that you're a pauper. I'm also sure that one who is an employee in a job that allows them to use a company computer fits the profile.

So, poor people do have to pay the tax. They just have to fill those forms you hate so much to do it. I guess you don't mind them having to do paperwork. A little misleading, don't you think?

How do you know they aren't onerous? Have you seen the design? The bill states the minimum information that has to be filled in, but you know the government, or you should. You need to read the bill. I posted an analysis of it a couple years ago. Look it up in the archives.

And you're wrong, you are not required ever to ask for a prebate. You are free to skip it. No problem. The SSA keeps up with SS#s of recipients today, they'll do it under the nrst too. No IRS needed because THERE'S NO DAMN REASON TO TRACK INCOME! Get it through your head!

Oh, sure you can skip it and be liable for the full impact of the sales tax on everything new. No reason for an IRS? What kind of organization do you think will handle the filling of all those claims, executed under penalty of perjury, and regulatte the honesty with which they are filled out?

Do you realize taht the SS system is a socialist system that tracks every one from birth to death and takes their substance? And you are angry at the income tax.

I don't "love the income tax". I don't want the income tax. I don't want to replace it with anything. I want to stop funding Socialist America. Do you scan that? Good. Please try to remember it.

This doens't make sense.

It's real simple. If a NRST replaces income taxes, you will no longer have to pay fed and FICA. So you would get your pay without fed and FICA taken out. You have a pay period. Add up the fed and FICA for that pay period and get a total. Assume 30% increase in the prices of all the things you buy in that pay period. Can you still buy what you would be used to buying in that pay period. Maybe, or maybe you could, but what happens if your car has to go into the shop. Goods and services (+parts), remember?

[ancient_geezer]

Assume 30% increase in the prices of all the things you buy in that pay period.

(_|_)uming again I see, how about some studies and figures to back your off the wall self serving guesses.

I refer you to the section of the following article about the Income/Payroll tax system and its impact on our economy "A. Hidden Upstream Taxes. " paragraph 39.

"[39] Dr. Dale Jorgenson, Chairman of Harvard University's Economics Department, believes that the price of goods and services are inflated by about 20 percent or more by upstream taxes consumers ultimately bear. In a recent paper Dr. Jorgenson estimated the built-in taxes contained in the price of goods and services. /22/ In the chart above, he quantified the hidden component of tax, estimating that producer prices would fall on repeal of upstream taxes an average of about 22 percent."

Looking at the accompanying chart, the range of values from industry to industry appears to be about 12-25%.

Economists Gary and Aldonna Robbins of the Texas-based Institute for Public Policy examined the case of dry cleaning a shirt, with a particular eye toward uncovering the hidden costs of taxes in price.

The Robbin's attributed over 33.6% of "consumer prices" to be due to federal taxation passed on to the customer.

The Federal Tax System
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=2125&sequence=0&from=1#pt1

From the Table 1 we may extract the proportionate contributions of each sector of taxes as they contribute to consumer price for the year 2000.

• Total revenues collected by Feds in '00 = $1945billion ( 33.6% of consumer price)

Those tax components which will not change prices as a consequence of enactment of HR2525

• Individual Income Tax(Labor) = 945billions,
• Employer half of Social Insurance = 653/2 = 326.5billions,
• Excises = $68billion
• Customs Duties = $19Billion
• Miscellaneous = $40Billion

============================

• Total constant price factors = $1358.5 billion
• Remainder federal tax components affecting price = (1945-1358.5) = $586.5

Adjust for a conservative $600billion(1995 figure, AGCA '00, Payne '95, PillaBartlettNorquist '95 ) interest & cost of compliance effects.

• Total tax related factors affecting consumption price = (600 + 586.5) = $1186.5billions

Estimated change in consumption prices as consequence of enactment of a National Retail Sales Tax, repealing all business income and payroll taxes:

33.6*(1186.5/1945) = 20.5% in consumption prices

Which compares well with the Jorgenson empirical study of 22% fall in producer prices.

The two sources are in reasonable agreement, and I see 20-23% a reasonable value to expect retalil shelf prices to fall not only for customers here in the United States, but in our exports as well making them far more competitive on international markets.

When businesses no longer pay corporate income tax, nor the employer's half of FICA, the costs of tax compliance are removed, the cost of goods and services tend to fall rather than rise by the amount you claim.