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To: ancient_geezer
Ah political suicide for the party of said lameduck office holder

Not necessarily. Granted, the party would lose the votes of "peter" (those paying the price in the marketplace), but it would gain the votes of "paul" (those getting the now massively inflated government handout).

Everything number, every regulation, impacting enacted programs are put through a very strict process involving committe reviews, public input and review, 90 delay of implementation to allow congressional action(only takes one Congress Critter to bring implementation to a complete halt for challenge and Congressional tabling of the the proposal to kill it outright.)

This isn't completely true of bureaucracies using administrative law via publication in the Federal Register. Instead of only taking "one Congress Critter to bring implementation to a complete halt", once the power is given to the bureaucracy, the opposite is true. Without an act of Congress, whatever the bureaucracy publishes becomes defacto law. This mechanism has been used many times for (what I consider, at least) tyrannical purposes. As was previously mentioned, once the power was transferred via GCA'68, treasury secretary Bensen was able to ban many 12 gauge shotguns merely by the stroke of a pen by declaring that they had no "sporting" purpose; and use of this power did not require any action by Congress (by Congress's inaction, it simply allowed it to become law). Similarly, the HIPAA regulations passed in the late 1990s allowed the HHS to impose arbitrary medical "privacy" laws (which were anything but, since they mandated sharing of information with government) merely by publishing them in the Federal Register (although they did provide a comment period for the majority of those new regulations, they did not do so for all of them).

Your belief that substantive change of that magnitude is mere excessive imagination and paranoia on your part. The mechanics of process & political opposition simply does not allow for the exercise of the kind of individual arbitariness you imagine.

I disagree. The same thing was said of GCA'68, but treasury secretary Bensen showed that those concerns were valid. Just because it took 25 years for the abuse to occur does not invalidate the concerns of those people who spoke out against it. Similarly, the fact remains that the potential for abuse exists with the current system. While I do not disagree with your assertion that such abuse of the system would have catastrophic effects on the economy, a view of history shows that administrations have been willing to perform equally catastrophic effects in the past (such as FDR's banning of private possession of gold and deliberate deflation of the economy).

If the system were that fragile and lacked the capacity to prevent such changes from implementaton, we would already be in your full communist dictatorial h'll hole right now

Personally, I think we're a lot closer to collectivism than you might believe. Certainly any of the founders, if they were alive today, would find aspects of the current system to be abominable (social security, EITC, medicaid, medicare, HUD housing, food stamps, corporate subsidies, etc). In any case, the reason the numbers have not been manipulated to such a degree so far is that the "payoff" for doing so isn't significant. When the system changes so that manipulation of those numbers to a greater extend than is currently done is even more advantageous (such as implementation of a socialist state), I fear that it only becomes a matter of time before some future leftist administration uses that power. I would prefer simply not to give them the opportunity in the first place.
1,058 posted on 11/12/2002 9:56:59 PM PST by Technogeeb
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To: Technogeeb

Granted, the party would lose the votes of "peter" (those paying the price in the marketplace), but it would gain the votes of "paul" (those getting the now massively inflated government handout).

No one getting a massively inflated handout as implementation would be halted via injuction and administative remedy of the Courts on challenge.

Without an act of Congress, whatever the bureaucracy publishes becomes defacto law.

Only if it passes through statutorily prescribed process for the proposal, board review, public review process, and publication of regulations, and then survive the 90 day Congressional review period after publication. No act of Congress is necescary during the review process, a mere challenge is sufficient to bring things to a screeching halt. Even after all that, the regulation is still challengable in the Courts under tort law, or plea for administrative relief where error, malfeasance, or misfeasance can be shown to the standard of preponderance of the evidence. An injuction to halt implementation until after the contoversy is resolved in the court take less than that.

It is clear you have a very limited understanding of the processes involved in proposing, implementing, and challenge of regulations. Things do not happen by mere fiat of individual bureaucrats in government, it takes concurrent complicity of the President, Congress, department heads, regulatory review boards, and the Courts to make a bad regulation or material error stick.

1,060 posted on 11/12/2002 10:39:52 PM PST by ancient_geezer
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