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To: dirtboy
What's your field?

You didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyway. I'm a visual foxpro guy. Visual foxpro is a microsoft product, it fills the same niche as visual basic. VFP is an excellent language, but the business world has soured on it. So, the fact that the market's soured on my language is a much bigger problem for me than h1b is.

I'm hanging on in VFP now as I still have 1 good client. But if it were not for h1b I would re-tool myself either in Visual Basic,Oracle or C#. I have an engineering type degree, but not computer related. I'm not a computer geek unfortunately. It took me a huge amount of effort to do the learning curve in foxpro.

So, in my down time (I have mostly down time) I've written my own software that duplicates what I did for my #1 client. I'm planning on selling it, although I've found it is very difficult to sell. If this doesn't work out, then I'll go back to construction management probably.

I'm an example of a person that has been proven to be very talented at programming in that I've completed a couple of projects that were extremely valuable and that numerous others before me had failed on and now I refuse to stick with my programming career because of h1b. I know a guy who is a Microsoft MVP for foxpro, meaning Microsoft gave him an 'MVP' award, a big feather in a person'a cap. And that fellow has spent a lot of the last 2-3 years either looking for a job, trying to sell his services as a consultant or doing nothing. He's one of the very elite is what I'm saying, one of the top 1-2% of all programmers easily. A previous employer of his marketed his work world-wide. Even he had a heckofa time finding a job. Industry says that VFP is outdated, but writing code in VFP results in the same result as writing it in VB, the languages are interchangeable. The industry is all fouled up, otherwise top programmers like me and this other fellow would be kept productive. We should be working constantly because we are the top performers. We've proven it. If you've worked in programming for years, then you know what I mean. Almost all the other guys in our language have been pushed out, and we few left spend much of our time trying tomarket ourselves or plotting our retreat out of the field. Yet we are perfectly suited to building many applications that businesses need. Our language does the job when in thehands of a skilled person just as good as any. So, from my pointof view, it seems industry claims it wants these people, but throws them away when you actually come and provide those skills. It is as much a problem with the managerial people simply wanting a submissive foreigner to dot he valuable work so they can take credit for it as anything.

I came into programming 10 years ago because I had heard there was a shortage of people and I knew I had the talent to dothe job. I wanted a high paying job. I succeeded in a big way. But now it seems all I've doneis learn how rotten my own fellow americans can be in passing laws to take this market away from me. I'll never forget that lesson nomatter what happens to me.

161 posted on 11/04/2002 1:19:20 PM PST by Red Jones
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To: Red Jones
I came into programming 10 years ago because I had heard there was a shortage of people and I knew I had the talent to dothe job. I wanted a high paying job. I succeeded in a big way. But now it seems all I've doneis learn how rotten my own fellow americans can be in passing laws to take this market away from me.

Hey, I have 15 years of experience with xBase, Foxbase, Foxpro and Visual Foxpro, in a tremendous range of settings - I've written some really leading-edge stuff, not necessarily from a technical viewpoint, but from innovating solutions for business problems. I was laid off back in January, and had a heck of a time finding a job - but I finally got one as a data analyst, because that was a large part of what I did previously, along with my development and business analysis/design work. I agree that VFP is a good language for certain applications, and that it isn't a big deal to go from VFP to VB or Access. But VFP simply isn't a good database package for enterprise development, with its 2 gig file size limit and the way it processes data - its a bandwidth hog. And the other problem you face is that HR departments simply run word recognition programs on resumes and don't look at far more valuable skills such as total programming experience or business experience. But you probably don't want to work for a company like that anyway.

Emphasize your business and application skills - IMO programming jobs are going to be a dime a dozen in upcoming years - maybe try to get into management. See if you can get a contract position - that can Trojan Horse you into a company where you can prove your worth - find an agency that specializes in contract work, and they can help get you in the backdoor easier than you trying to kick down the front door. And, if you were an effective developer (and it sounds like you were), you had to learn the business for which you were programming - that's probably more valuable now than your programming skills. Look for those kind of companies, and apply there. Also, re-package your resume, and dwell less on your programming and instead emphaisis achievements. And hang in there - I went through some really low times when I was unemployed, but things will get better.

And I generally agree with you about the H1-B program - but IMO sooner or later a lot of programming jobs were going to go overseas if there was no H1-B program. Companies, for the most part, just don't care any more - they pursue the bottom line, and politicians are more than glad to lie for them to help them pursue their goals.

You'll have freepmail, also, in a few minutes - I have an anecdote I don't want to post on the open forum.

162 posted on 11/04/2002 1:34:09 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: Red Jones
But now it seems all I've doneis learn how rotten my own fellow americans can be in passing laws to take this market away from me. I'll never forget that lesson nomatter what happens to me.

You're not the only that'll remember that Red. I think there's more than just a few of us that feel that way..

165 posted on 11/04/2002 2:00:53 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: Red Jones
You need to learn Visual C# or app-server-oriented Java. Visual FoxPro is too low-end. The Visual Studio .NET stuff rocks, and if you learn that and then keep an eye on Python and Apache-based app server technology, you will have a bright future. The key is to realize that everything you know will be worthless in 36 months or less.
185 posted on 11/05/2002 6:39:56 AM PST by eno_
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