Take A Stand: Vote against H1B, Boycott H1B Companies

Those payroll taxes for an h1b are withheld, but instead of the money going to social security medicaire, etc it goes to home country. So, in essence our economy is taxed to send money to home government to encourage them to continue producing such people.

Oh man, please tell me you're kidding.

For every one contract opening, there are probably over 70 highly qualified candidates that apply. Additionally, contract positions are few and far between these days...

Try here. Click the "Contract Jobs" radio button.
Net-Temps
Right now it returns "5253 jobs available". These are just the contract jobs - in information technology. Now in Chicago there are only 161 contract jobs currently listed - on this one site - in information technology.

Lot of the time the pay is poor, though. There are plenty of jobs where they want to pay someone with 4 years or more of experience $25 - $35 hour. That sucks. (For those of you who think it doesn't, remember contractors usually only "work" about 1200 to 1500 hours per year. The rest of the time they are looking for the next job. And they have to pay both sides of social security, all medical/dental/life, etc. If you can clear $45/hr for a 1500 hour year, that $67,500 is about equivalent to a $50K/year salary. Not great, but not bad. But if you clear $25/hour for a 1200 hour year, then that $30K is about equivalent to $18K (because of the SS, medical/dental/life.) That really, really, stinks for someone with a 4 year degree and 4+ years of experience in a technical field. Especially because someone who dropped out of high school can get a job working night stock at the supermarket, and with 4 years of experience is earning $16/hour: (16 x 40 x 50 = $32K). And on top of the $32K they get full medical/dental/life coverage, and the employer pays part of the SS tax. Of course they pay modest union dues (retail clerks union).

But even so it is interesting that a high school drop out working a night shift on not particularly skilled labor can earn more than a 4 year college degree person in a technical field with the same number of years of experience. Hmmm...maybe just home schooling, going straight to work in a grunt union job at age 16 is the way to go after all. No college debt. No real expenses....until they invent robots to stock shelves in the grocery store this might be the way to go.

You're like, what, 11 years old? Starting your Troll lifestyle early? Posting on mom's computer? :-)

Right now it returns "5253 jobs available". These are just the contract jobs - in information technology. Now in Chicago there are only 161 contract jobs currently listed - on this one site - in information technology.

Thanks for the suggestion, but those jobs include occupations that have little to do with software. Many are for biotech positions, and somehow they get listed in with software. There's also MANY positions that are REQUIRING such a list of qualifications that it is virtually impossible for any one person to have such a background. After going through the motions of making an attempt to hire US engineers, they simply say they can't fill the job with an American and get a H1B who SAYS that he has ALL the experience (wink wink...)

Through Nettemps, I've found an average of 1 or 2 new software positions a week in the area I'm in. I've replied to those plus any I've found on Dice.com, Monster.com, and various others. I'd be willing to work for MUCH less money than what I used to make. I seldom ever get a response at all, and even when and if I do it's only from agencies that MAY send my resume in to HR at their client company. I haven't had ANY interviews this entire year...

Here's a link to Professor Matloff's research:

http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html

Matloff's main focus is to document that there is no shortage of 'high-tech' or engineering people in America. He documents meticulously that this idea is a fraud. Matloff also shows convincingly that this H1b will succeed at discouraging young americans from entering these types of work. That is a disaster.

Thanks for posting the link. I've read Matloff's study, and there's a few discussions on FR in relation to it. It is a highly disturbing report and has proven itself to be true. While industry lobbyists were greasing the palms of politicians and spewing nonsense about this non-existant labor shortage, Matloff was trying to warn everyone what was really in the works. Unfortunetly, Matloff's report wasn't mentioned in the press as far as I know, and I've only come across it this year...

Assuming these workers are generating more value than they are costing, it would blow a $100-200 billion hole in the economy to send them home. How many Amercian welfare cases are the taxes on this income supporting? How many hundreds of billions worth in higher education did these engineers' home countries export to us? These are not wetbacks. Many of these people are compensating for our dumbed-down eductaion system.

It is very true that many service companies and consultancies abuse H1-B visas to get cheap warm bodies to bill to their clients. But R&D workers on H1-B are a no-lose proposition. It is money in our pockets, and no loss of jobs - the activity that new products generate creates many more jobs.

So if we limit H1-B visas, it should be done in a way that enables the highest-value people for the highest-value positions to still come here, while keeping out the seatwarmers at KPMG and EDS.

The solution?? Don't really have a clue.

The answer? It's simple: We need to educate our people better. It isn't H1-B that's doing us in, it's our schools. We need to demand a revolution in academic rigor in our schools. Otherwise we are doomed.

H1B for the most part has been nothing but a scam from day one....

They are polite and try to be helpful, but drive me nuts, as we go step by step to get to the problems on my computer. When I ask them to "repeat" something, they say, "ahh,.." and then RE-phrase instead of RE-peat, confusing me

I hear you loud and clear. I'm an IT guy and it drives me crazy that people in positions where communication is the primary requirement (it's not technical knowledge -- these are entry level jobs) can't communicate with their customers. Also, in my experience there is this notion that if they are from india or china they must be smart... or that lack of ability to speak english means they must be smart. It's crazy, it's PC sensibility, and it needs to be stopped.

Indian project managers. That's a laugh. Only if the country is ready to accept an inferior product in the name of PC multi-culti. Which it may be... one more reason to take over the government and let the adults to run things. And get rid of the communists. It's supposed to rain (hard) in Houston tomorrow. Pray for rain & snow.

Assuming these workers are generating more value than they are costing, it would blow a $100-200 billion hole in the economy to send them home.

I'd say their presence here is COSTING our country billions of dollars per year. They live together in apartments and share expenses while sending a huge chunk of their paycheck to relatives in their native land. That money isn't being spent or invested here in the US. Their taxes are sent back to their native country and are utilized to train even MORE of them so that they can come here to the US to do the same thing...

How many Amercian welfare cases are the taxes on this income supporting?

They don't pay taxes to the US government, so the answer would be zero. I would say that they're CAUSING an increase in welfare cases however, as families of those replaced by H1-B workers still need food and shelter.

How many hundreds of billions worth in higher education did these engineers' home countries export to us?

None, as we are the ones who pay for their education. Additionally, all of those who worked hard to put themselves through school here in the US are seeing that all of that hard work was all for naught.

These are not wetbacks.

Many of them are. The H1-B program is wrought with fraud, and violations of law are overlooked.

Many of these people are compensating for our dumbed-down eductaion system.

Because you might read on FR that TODAYS public schools are dumbed down and that they indoctrinate children to liberal policies, universities still expect a person to successfully complete a rigorous 4 year program for any degree in engineering. Subjects include Calculus, Physics, Chemistry, and of course whatever engineering courses that pertain to one's chosen field. Those courses ARE NOT dumbed down, and the majority of every single innovation in our field is the result of AMERICAN engineers and scientists.

It is very true that many service companies and consultancies abuse H1-B visas to get cheap warm bodies to bill to their clients. But R&D workers on H1-B are a no-lose proposition. It is money in our pockets, and no loss of jobs - the activity that new products generate creates many more jobs.

There is NOTHING to gain and EVERYTHING to lose by hiring H1-B workers. Many are very difficult to understand due to their poor knowledge of English. Their design documents are close to unintelligible, causing much time to be lost in deciphering their writings. Many do NOT have the experience and expertise that they claim, and produce buggy and ill-thought out software. They are not superiour to Americans, in many cases they are sub-standard.

So if we limit H1-B visas, it should be done in a way that enables the highest-value people for the highest-value positions to still come here, while keeping out the seatwarmers at KPMG and EDS.

The H1 program allowed RECOGNIZED experts in their fields to work here. H1-B allows virtually ANYONE to work in the US. We should return to the standard set by the original H1 program.

The answer? It's simple: We need to educate our people better. It isn't H1-B that's doing us in, it's our schools.

Wrong. It's greedy corporate executives who could care less about America. It's people who believe everything those corporations report to the media.

We need to demand a revolution in academic rigor in our schools. Otherwise we are doomed.

We need to demand a repeal of the H1-B program. There are hundreds of thousands of HIGHLY educated and skilled Americans out of work. We don't need to import slaves from other lands.

They most certainly do pay U.S. income taxes, and FICA, and the employer pays their FICA contribution, too, and they cannot be reimbursed for FICA even though many leave after the term of their visas (6 years max - versus 10 years minumum for SS benefits). There are bilateral tax treaties with Canada and some Eurpoean countries that enable H1-Bs to pay into their home SS system. But no treaty with India, and no treaty with Russia, at least when I employed a bunch of Russians.

We get and keep ALL their FICA. More than 10 billion per year.

IANAL, but I'm pretty sure they are liable for U.S. income tax, too. Certainly if a U.S. citizen works overseas, they pay the host country's tax (with the exception of U.N. employees in some places).

They most certainly do pay U.S. income taxes, and FICA, and the employer pays their FICA contribution, too, and they cannot be reimbursed for FICA even though many leave after the term of their visas (6 years max - versus 10 years minumum for SS benefits).

That is CURRENTLY true concerning Indians. I may have misread an article that I had found in relation to totalization agreements which do in fact exempt foreign nationals from US FICA. However, Indians amongst others are lobbying Congress to pass totalization treaties with them.

Taxing times: Nasscom pitches for totalisation deal with US, UK

There are bilateral tax treaties with Canada and some Eurpoean countries that enable H1-Bs to pay into their home SS system. But no treaty with India, and no treaty with Russia, at least when I employed a bunch of Russians.

There's MANY countries that have totalization agreements with the US.

From U.S. INTERNATIONAL SOCIAL SECURITY AGREEMENTS

U.S. Social Security Agreements

Country	Entry into Force
Italy	November 1, 1978
Germany	December 1, 1979
Switzerland	November 1, 1980
Belgium	July 1, 1984
Norway	July 1, 1984
Canada	August 1, 1984
United Kingdom	January 1, 1985
Sweden	January 1, 1987
Spain	April 1, 1988
France	July 1, 1988
Portugal	August 1, 1989
Netherlands	November 1, 1990
Austria	November 1, 1991
Finland	November 1, 1992
Ireland	September 1, 1993
Luxembourg	November 1, 1993
Greece	September 1, 1994
South Korea	April 1, 2001
Chile	December 1, 2001
Australia	October 1, 2002

We get and keep ALL their FICA. More than 10 billion per year.

For NOW we get to keep the FICA from Indian nationals. That may change. As far as this 10 billion dollar figure, do you have any source information on that?

[The answer? It's simple: We need to educate our people better. It isn't H1-B that's doing us in, it's our schools. We need to demand a revolution in academic rigor in our schools. Otherwise we are doomed.]

I totally agree with you on that. The H1B should have been put in place for a few years - 5 at the most - at which time our education system should have been geared up to provide those needed workers - rather than undereducating them.

But from what I have read on FR and heard on the few newscast I hear, we now have many, many educated and experienced Americans who need those jobs. The situation has changed in the last year. It sounds to me as if there is no further need for those workers. However, I will be very surprised if the program is stopped or even slowed. A company gets addicted to cheap labor and I don't see them or the politicians they own making any changes there. "I wouldn't ask that much of nature."

Our education system is just ridiculous - don't know a word to describe it really. I will confess, however, that I do see in America a lack of drive as a whole. In high school, there is much more emphasis on football, cheerleading, band, etc. than on excelling at academics. When you look at schools (high schools and even college), think about it - what place does sports have in the actual education? I know it is just a part of the system - but just think if we spent that much time, money, and effort getting children excited about learning what a country this would be. I have heard all the argument for, since I voiced this opinion at many school board and committe meetings at an East Texas high school - it is a wonder I wasn't tarred and feathered. Thinking back - I must have ben a very brave lady. My son was a big guy, but didn't play football. To impress a girl, he decided he was going to go out for football. They were going to let him drop Calculus so he could play football!!

"You know what happens next? Your company will simply outsource development to India. It's easily done, and India resources can undercut American programmers by 50%.

My company sells Indian outsourcing, and we're doing very well right now."

Too bad the Indian programmers don't understand requirements, meet bare minimum standards for programming, and leave code in their wake that is not documented, badly coded, and often requires complete rework.

But, hey, that doesn't bother you, since by then you're three contracts down the road, raking in the $ with your sweatshop H1B workers.

So the net cost of the foreign worker is higher. I have AMPLE experience behind this, since where I work the trend is: start a project, bring on 80 H1Bs to code like mad, fire them all when the rush coding phase is done, and depend on the old hands to fix the many many many bugs.

If H1-B wages are $80B, and the bulk are from low-wage countries (SS tax treaties are mainly with first-world countries with comparable SS tax rates and benenfits), then we are, in fact, raking in nearly 15% of that (which would be $12B) in FICA without any obligation to pay benefits.

That's not counting normal income tax.

And where do you get the idea we pay for universities in India, much less China? Like I said, unless these people are frauds (some certainly are - I have seen some firsthand) or seat-warmers for dishonest consulting firms, smart immigrants are a huge benefit.

I also make a lot of money from working for overseas companies. Last year 30% of my billable hours and 40% of my gross were on project located in Europe. We need to make high-value professional work more easily internationalizable. It's good for us.

I would like to see secure borders and wetbacks out of our schools, hospitals, prisons, and welfare programs first. Sriram the software guy is the least of our worries.

"The answer? It's simple: We need to educate our people better. It isn't H1-B that's doing us in, it's our schools."

"Wrong. It's greedy corporate executives who could care less about America. It's people who believe everything those corporations report to the media."

Exactly right. In the 90s there was a hue and cry as companies rushed to idiocy in the dot-com craze, and found that when they required Java or some other new tech, they had to shell out appropriately as the candidate field was small. (Excepting people already skilled in related languages, whom they didn't want to hear from).

So they went to Congress and said, we have a shortage of tech workers, give us cheap labor. And Congress said, yes, certainly, have hundreds of thousands of people.

The rest is supply and demand; if we import 100,000 people for whom a 70 hour work week at half the normal pay is a treasure, then the wages stagnate, and employers demand crazy hours, and get them. We're not talking a good honest 40 hour week, or a dedicated professional 45 or 50 hour week, but mandated 7 day, 60+ hour weeks.

Some of the people I've seen forced into that were salaried exempt; so not only did their wages freeze, but they were working 50% or more extra hours for nothing. (I was lucky I guess, I got paid for the extra at least).

Then, as I said in the above post, the H1Bers' code falls to pieces, so the regular staff has to fix everything, at huge expense. But the contractor who pimps the H1Bs is gone, has taken his $ and moved on pushing 'cheap' labor.

And where do you get the idea we pay for universities in India, much less China?

As I had earlier mentioned, I had incorrectly thought that we already had a totalization agreement with India. Someone earlier had stated as such, and I had assumed that it was a fact. BUT, if they DO send most of their money home, don't you think some of it finds its way to those institutions?

Like I said, unless these people are frauds (some certainly are - I have seen some firsthand) or seat-warmers for dishonest consulting firms, smart immigrants are a huge benefit.

Not at the expense of America. There might be a short term bonanza for corporations, but the long term costs are high.

I also make a lot of money from working for overseas companies. Last year 30% of my billable hours and 40% of my gross were on project located in Europe. We need to make high-value professional work more easily internationalizable. It's good for us.

It might be good for globe trotters such as yourself. It is NOT good for the rest of us.

I would like to see secure borders and wetbacks out of our schools, hospitals, prisons, and welfare programs first. Sriram the software guy is the least of our worries.

Sriram is taking my job. Sriram IS my worry, along with those who have pushed for him to be sitting in my chair.