Replies

I think I see the source of contention here. When I said (whatever it was) "information society has made men not matter so much any more," I wasn't implying that I literally believe that to be the case. Especially in the case of fatherhood, the masculine/male parental element is no less essential than the feminine/female, if the child is to grow up "healthy." Regardless of whether the family is 18th Century agrarian or 21st Century Microsoft. My post does seem to say that I'm exclusively defining men by what the Do. Should have either put the "matter so much" phrase in quotes or explained it better. I was at work and in a hurry, and you (Z) are a tough crowd. ; )

Manhood isn't obsolete in our society. Any more than Womanhood was obsolete when life was more physically demanding. [Here's where this train of thought becomes a chicken/egg quizzer]. In an ideal society (my words), the most definitive traits of both men and women will be maximized by the demands and expectations of the society. Meaning whatever men and women naturally bring to the table will be what society needs of them. Rather than defining men and women by what they Do, men and women simply Are, and in so Being, they are fit well within the daily demands of the society.

What are the most definitive traits of men and women? Watch children in unorganized play, and you get a pretty good answer. Before a relentless interest in the previously-unremarkable girls crept into the scene, the following sums up most of the free time spent by me and basically every guy I knew as a kid: building things with Lincoln Logs, Leggos, sticks, mud; knocking down said construction projects, playing role of Godzilla, US Army, Giant (insert your name); visiting certain death on local insect populations with fire, water, earth, tennis rackets; "projecting" at each other and the occaisional passing car a variety of missles, including mud, rocks, horse apples, water balloons, fireworks, BBs, burning logs; and of course endless competition/roughhouse activities like football, tag, hide-and-seek, smear the queer. None of this was scripted by demands of a job or school curricula or Oprah. It is, though, what we did as soon as we could get away from the scripted environs of school, church, etc...

Frankly, I don't know what girls were doing in that same age bracket, because I wasn't often around them or paying attention to them. I'm 100% sure that the daily play routine of the average girl (assuming we were average guys) didn't look anything like the guys' routine. At the very least, I recall when the guys at school during recess were jumping off the highest point on the school yard or doing their best to knock someone's head off playing Bombardament, the girls were also engrossed in their own activities. I just don't recall what they were doing. Jump rope comes to mind. Sitting in circles and talking. AND of course there were girls doing more guy-like things and guys doing more girl-like things. Not saying that only boys could play rough or that only girls were interested in more gentle pursuits.

Obviously, we don't expect grown men to pass their days throwing waterballoons at each other, and we don't expect women to skip rope for hours on end. But, and this is more to my point, it's very obvious from a young age (mayber from birth, I don't know since I'm not a parent) that men and women, whether children and adults simply ARE very different creatures, regardless of what they DO with their time. My contention about modern society is that it's more naturally suited to the very nature of females, and increasingly unsuitable and outright hostile to the very nature of males. Assuming that the best society is one in which the natural inclinations of men and women are exactly what society demands of them, then men aren't as good a fit as women.

Z, this addressed to you as a reply. But it's also a better-developed explanation of my idea, generally addressed to whomever is reading the thread. I've got to stop writing right now, will post more later.