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To: Dr. Frank
I did not say there WAS a vote. I am talking about projections made by US analysts in State and the CIA based upon the consideration of a united Viet Nam with elected leadership. The fact that we had to assasinate the leader in the south and run their government and the war shows the fallacy behind those who thought the south was a nation independent of the north. In my opinion you have also overstated the coercion involved in such a scenario and misunderstand much of the Vietnamese population circa 1955-65.
75 posted on 10/31/2002 1:51:36 PM PST by breakem
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To: breakem
I am talking about projections made by US analysts in State and the CIA based upon the consideration of a united Viet Nam with elected leadership.

I know you are. But why do you care about this projection? That is what I am asking you.

Why do you think the outcome of a terrorism-death-squad-tainted vote would have been important (any more important than the recent vote in Iraq)? That is what I am asking you.

Why do you keep ignoring the fact that everyone in the South had already made it clear they didn't want to live under Minh (by leaving the north or at least not going there), while at the same time you hype up a hypothetical "vote" of terrorized people in an artifically-unified country (who said it had to be "unified:? it never was a unified country in the first place) as evidence that they all "wanted" to live under Minh? That is what I am asking you.

Do you understand the things I am asking you now?

The fact that we had to assasinate the leader in the south and run their government and the war shows the fallacy behind those who thought the south was a nation independent of the north.

Actually neither the south nor the north were "nations independent" of each other or of anyone else for that matter. They were both completely made-up nations, the inventions of foreign diplomats trying to figure out how to get the French outta there (in fact originally there were three made-up "nations"). There was never, historically, a unified country called "Vietnam" and no obvious reason why there ever had to be. (Note: Because Ho Chih Minh wanted to rule over everyone there, not just the North!, is not a good reason). There were loosely connected villages in a place probably referred to by Chinese as "the low countries" or some similar construction.

Now you are telling me that "the south wasn't independent of the north". Uh, so what? Not only wasn't it "independent", it needed our protection for survival. This is not in dispute at all. In fact, it's precisely my point: these people (who did not want to live under Minh) needed our protection for their survival, and in the end we let them down. This was not good or honorable, but for some reason you seem to think it's okay because in a thought experiment some CIA dudes realized that if they were to take a (completely tainted) vote, those terrorized people would probably have voted for Minh.

In my opinion you have also overstated the coercion involved in such a scenario

That's your opinion. Tell it to millions of slaughtered Vietnamese peasants. Their opinion might differ.

and misunderstand much of the Vietnamese population circa 1955-65.

Well I do know that the vast majority of them chose not to live under Minh when given the chance. Meanwhile, you (in all your expertise) either don't know this, or keep choosing to ignore it for some reason.

76 posted on 10/31/2002 2:09:45 PM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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